"September 19, 2008: In the Persian Gulf, UH-60 Black Hawk transport helicopters are being turned into gunships. The UAE (United Arab Emirates) has ordered 14 American UH-60M transport helicopters, and some interesting accessories. The package includes six spare engines, and an defensive electronic warfare system for each helicopter (including laser and radar warning sensors as well as defenses against anti-aircraft missiles.) This purchase includes weapons systems for the new, and existing, UAE UH-60s. This includes equipping 23 of these aircraft to use Hellfire missiles. That includes 30 Hellfire launchers and 390 Hellfire missiles and 23,916 70mm (2.75 inch) unguided rockets. Gun systems include 22 of the three barrel 12.7mm GAU-19 Gatling gun (weighing 500 pounds.) The GAU-19 can also deliver 33 rounds a second. Also, 93 of the GAU-2/M-134 six barrel 7.62mm minigun, which can fire 66 rounds a second. " www.strategypage.com


Came across this article and pondered if RSAF would be replacing the Super Pumas soon with Black Hawks, whose navalised cousin was selected as the ASW helo for our frigates. These UAE Black Hawks seem to be armed to the teeth.....wonder if our Chinooks and Pumas were equipped with such defensive equipments or not....or would they ever be....

i remember some comments within the Air Force Open House group regarding NH90s......

Our pumas and chinooks can be armed to some extent. The SPs can actually be pimped up quite a bit, actually.

For UAE, I guess its a cheaper alternative to purchase heavily armed blackhawks than buy actual helo gunships which undoubtedly is already built for this purpose, like heavier armour, gun pods for the cannons, excellent targeting systems incurring heavier costs. I guess it would be cool to see our pumas change to blackhawks, probably install some M134 Miniguns as door guns.

Actually our SP can have our local 0.5 HMG mounted at the door ways. It used to be in the ST Engg website but can't find it any more.

Doorway HMGs are commonly retrofitted and have been since the Vietnam war--- I'm not surprised that our SPs are able to mount them. Rocket pods and missiles, on the other hand, are a whole new level. The UH-60 is able to mount them because it was designed from the start to have stub wings for fuel etc, not sure if the SP has similar reinforcements in the structure to support such a loadout.

Remember that for aircraft, every gram of weaponry costs a gram of fuel or payload. Every bit of additional weight reduces the range or payload of an aircraft. Defensive weaponry don't come for free on aircraft, so aircraft should not try to be everything at once. It is far more sensible for transport helos to be escorted by dedicated gunships or fast movers than for them to be a jack of all trades.

But the rate fire for our 0.5HMG is much much lower than those miniguns....for effective fire suppressing purposes the miniguns is much better

Also, our Pumas aren't equipped with self protection stuff right? Like flares, jammers etc... so basically they are flying targets for ground forces.....

Not sure about that, but the upgraded SPs with 0.5in CIS we saw at the Open House also have a few more "sensors" of some sort around the body.

a pix taken at RSAF Open House 2006

The one shown at Open House seem configured for CSAR and airborne assault.

yep that's true, i have seen the CIS 0.50 in actually both the SP and the Chinooks. Chinooks have small openings at the sides slightly more to the front to fit these guns. actually i have seen pictures of Browning M2s or miniguns (can't remember) affixed right before the loading ramp of American Chinooks. strafing off in Vietnam.

No doubt, a troop and equipment carrier should always by far stick to its role. Door guns only for defensive purposes, never an overkill. Attacking is for the gunship helos. I think by our defence budget, I don't think we need to compound these 2 roles together like what we are doing now.

i have actually seen our super puma with rocket pod... during a previous open house many many years ago when i was still chasing girls' skirt.

even had a photo of it... but lost it after moving house afew times.... :P

pix of said sensors. it's a missile approach warning system, MAWS, with radar sensor (the black rectangle), EO/IR sensor (the faceted black thingy) integrated with flare dispenser (gray box with many slots). sensors on the undercarriage sponson and flares on the fore end of the tailboom.



frontal hemisphere sensors: radar forward of the cockpit, IR forward of door.




the SAR SPs also have some interesting aerials under the cockpit, presumably related to SAR emergency beacons and comms or what not.

Wow, wat a powderful puma... Wonder got amour seats inside or not....

Think RSAF have to source for a replacement soon. Our neighbours buing EC 735s.... soon cougars all over the sky. SADA duno which one to shoot....

put IFF node on our ec735 if they dont already have those.

plus IR reflector strips as well.

What about getting the NH90.

saw the JMSDF white paper 2009 i think, they have a few NH90 for mine clearing duties (pull mine clearing sled). couple more on order i think.

any chance we'd get something like those in case of naval blockade / unlikely scenario so no chance of those ?

JMSDF got the EH101 for MCM duties, not the NH90... I remember an article from AWST that said the RSN showed interest in the SH-60's MCM kit. So I guess the RSN is at least considering a heli based MCM capability.

the pumas sent to Somalia have armoured window shields at the front.

our SPs did have pintle mounted CIS50s on them..go check out the vids on our contribution to Somalia...

I dunno...if we need a replacement, I'd say UH-60s since RSAF will have experience in them...

The Australia army is also using the MRH 90.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/craigs1/39649...57621890945568/

ah my bad. confused the NH90 and AW101. i thought they were the same aircraft.

hmm but does the helicopter size/payload affect the mine sled capability ? recalled that the marines used to use the CH-53 sea dragon / before that the jolly green giants to pull their mine sleds.

why shift to a AW101 sized platform ? will a smaller platform affect the size of sled that can be carried and used ?

Definitely need lots of power to pull a sled, that's why they needed the big MH-53E... Probably the NH90 was too small. THe MH-60S doesn't use a sled, instead it pulls a much smaller minehunting sonar so that's why it was up to task, IIRC.

Remember the MINDEF competition on the search for a Naval Helicopter for the Formidables? And it was eventually won by the S-70Bs?

The NH-90 will be a favourite to replace the SP IF the NH-90 was the selected winner then instead of the S-70B. In terms of logistics and commonality, it makes more sense to have a common platform especially the procured SH numbers is small (6?) and that's the reason why the RSAF decided to 'dispose' off the F-16A/B.

However, the above statement is now off the table esp since the MINDEF top brass has de-linked the commonality in 'whoever wins the Naval Helicopter contest will stand a better chance to replace the land equivalent'.

But right now, it is anybody guess but if the NH-90 was to replace the SP, this decision could richochete off the SH where it may be replaced by the NH-90 down the road. :blink:

@YF
thanks for the clarification. appreciate it.

does operating a 3 helicopter fleet of S70s, Ch47 and presumably SP replacement NH90/AW101 offer redundancy ? and is this redundancy cost-effective to justify another platform ? dont count the colibiri, a little too small.

i mean a mixed medium tactical lift fleet would mean that if your SP gets grounded, u still have a medium tactical lift option available (but your ships would be somewhat naked). although you could use the CH47s, that may prove overkill for the mission at hand and heavy lift is always needed somewhere like logistics and arty transport (do our ch47s practice lifting arty ?)

maybe some other factors we have to look at here. will an industrial offset basis be important for us within our next helicopter purchase ? afterall, eurocopter has a MRO plant/asia-pac HQ somewhere in loyang. will the presence of such a facility be an important factor in the seletar aerospace park ? given that the helicopters will serve for quite a while in the RSAF, likely to ensure their long term commercial presence here in sg

what about other bigger heavy lift / quick transport options ? CH-53K or the MV-22 osprey (heard that boeing tiltrotor identified japan as a potential target customer for the region).a bigger chopper can always lift more, but higher acquisition operational cost but this is offset by payload and how it can potentially be deployed ?

Its true that choppers can be around for a long time, understand that not all our Hueys are scrapped/sold....quite a number are retained in reserve storage...for contingencies.... our Super Pumas are getting older but they should still be soldier on for sometime...but that being said, there were talks that RSAF is looking towards the Black Hawks as replacement, very similar to the Sea Hawks which RSN got for their frigates. Understand they chose the Sea Hawks becos' of the possibility of getting the Black Hawks in future.....

Wonder if any of the Super Pumas are configured for Special Ops role?

Though the UH-60 is a proven design, its capacity is substantially less than the Super P. Been on an NH-90 and a UH-60 over the weekend and was quite surprised at how much more roomy the cabin of the NH-90 is compared to the UH-60. The rear ramp on the NH-90 will also be a nice feature to have if we were to get the NH-90s as the SP replacement.

Agree with Eurofighter. SH-60's too small as a SP replacement. NH90 and AW101 are more similar to the SP. CH-53K is way over the SH-60 and SP in terms of lift capability.

Good choices raised thus far.

My preference is for an all chook fleet. NH-90/AW101 still lacks useful lift capability for the Pegasus. CH-47 provides greater lift for less pilots/sorties (or the V-22 which makes for interesting consideration).

SP/Cougar are 9 ton range so if looking for 1-1, we're probably looking at ~10-11 ton class helos

A more complete list of candidates are:

(a) AS 532 9 tons (already in service)
(b ) NH-90 10 tons (still cannot carry pegasus)
(c ) UH-60 10.6 tons (not too small)
(d) Mi-17 11 tons (won't buy russki)
(e) EC-725 11 tons (won't buy malaysian)
(f) EC-225 11 tons (too similar to EC-725)
(g) AW101 11 tons (not cheap, not armed = might as well get CH-47s)
(h) S92 12 tons (not cost effective)

Do indicate if I missed out any...

Ruled out AW149 which at 8 tons (4k lb loads) offers better performance at more cost-effective price but rsaf probably won't get a lighter helo.

We could end up with just more AS-532s too...

possible...UK only recently just upgraded thier helo fleet, and that includes a lot of SPs as well...

without saying too much, I guess our mix of choppers is to help transport section plus (hence SP) and platoon plus (Chinook) worth of men...I fear UH60 might be too small to accomodate the section plus strenght...

just to add another dimension to this.

remember CJ's cryptic remark about a flat deck vessel ? the endurance class has ample deck space and can hold 2 helicopters within the hangar bay (iirc) and 2 on the flight deck. but we only have 6 SH-70s to go around the fleet. given our increased participation in UN PKO or collective security / international enforcement activities in afghanistan, TF151, UN East timor and for humanitarian purposes. something that may be used for ship-shore heavy lift ?

Chooks can operate from Endurance although SPs are the normal complement.

http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/publicati...jan05_news.html

I was under the impression that the SH70s are meant for the Formidables? Can the Endurance hangar take in the Chinook?

That's provided that the next class of LSTs are same size as current ones and not enlarged versions..... next LSTs would sport larger flat decks....meaning can accomodate more helos....

average age of endurance class is about 10 years old. less if you count from the date of commission. dont think they are up for replacement so soon ?

we got more helo capable naval ships than we have helicopters. i think emphasis will be given to expanding seahawk fleet first and then maybe in another 5-10 years the superpuma replacement? the 100 F35s are going to be expensive too.

Not replacing the current LSTs, but additions..... given our expanding roles.....better sea-keeping qualities....

My understanding is that the hanger take at least 1 chook.

Its technically S-70s without the H or SH-60s (which are the derivatives of the UH-60/HH-60) but that's not impt.