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Title: UAV warfare thread


stars - October 15, 2008 04:32 AM (GMT)
UAV's have changed the battefield. but i m quite surprised there's no thread to keep track of all the developments here.

to consolidate and keep up all UAV related news.

from alert 5 :

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10064231-1.html

QUOTE
'60 Minutes' video: Drone warfare in Iraq
Posted by Jonathan Skillings

One technology more than any other has stood out as a success story for the U.S. military in Iraq: unmanned aerial vehicles, or UAVs.

The best-known of the UAVs, the MQ-1 Predator, has evolved from its early use as simply a reconnaissance and surveillance aircraft to become a highly valued weapon in its own right. Armed with Hellfire missiles, it can both track enemy combatants and fire on them. A more recent version of the Predator, called the MQ-9 Reaper, was specifically put into service as a "hunter-killer" drone.

The Pentagon has been so impressed with the use of UAVs in combat zones that it has made a high priority out of training and assigning new pilots for the aircraft (though not without some controversy). While the Predators carry out missions in places like Iraq and Afghanistan, and are handled by ground crews there, the pilots generally operate from thousands of miles away, in places like Creech Air Force Base in Nevada.

In Sunday's installment of the CBS news magazine 60 Minutes, correspondent Lesley Stahl traveled to Iraq to talk to Gen. Ray Odierno, the new top commander there, and other senior U.S. military personnel about the role of UAVs.

During last spring's fight for Sadr City, for instance, UAVs including the Predator and the RQ-7 Shadow proved instrumental in finding and destroying insurgent targets. Cameras on the aircraft help commanders on the ground see and map out a wide area of operations with their "persistent surveillance" capability.

Stahl's report shows rare footage of the weaponry in action as the military pursued "fleeting and perishable" targets.

U.S. officials credit the high-tech aerial systems as among the top reasons that violence in Iraq dropped so dramatically this year. And earlier this year, although still a young technology, the Predator and the Shadow were among the half-dozen UAVs recognized with an exhibition at the Smithsonian Institution.

The Predator--with its "snowmobile" engine and unobtrusive presence--has also become a favored tool of the CIA. Take a closer look in the January 2003 video below, from the 60 Minutes archives.


do look at this site : there's a 60mins, clip showing how the drones were used in combat

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/sto...channel=defense
QUOTE
DCNS Demos UAV Landing on French Frigate

Oct 13, 2008

By Christina Mackenzie

Another significant step for seabased unmanned air vehicles (UAVs) took place recently on the Mediterranean when a helicopter UAV was automatically landed on a French Navy frigate, the Montcalm.

user posted image


The demonstration on 9 and 10 October was made by French military shipyard DCNS, which worked on an automatic deck landing and take-off system, the SADA (Systeme d'Appontage et de Decollage Automatique) in close collaboration with Austrian company Schiebel which developed the CAMCOPTER S-100 with which the demonstration was undertaken.

"Until now, the taking-off but above all the landing of UAVs was constrained, limiting their safe and operational deployment from ships," DCNS said in a statement. "Operational solutions to date are conditioned by daylight and calm seas whereas the objective is to be deployable 24 hours a day, even in bad weather conditions."

The system developed by DCNS and Schiebel enables safe recuperation of a helicopter-type UAV in less than two minutes up to sea state 5, as in heavy winds and strong waves. It is based on positioning by an infrared sensor that guides and lands the drone with a precision of 30 cm for fail-safe harpooning onto the landing grid. Landing by GPS alone does not have this precision, DCNS says.

SADA is adaptable "in a non-intrusive manner" to all ships and all types of rotor UAVs.

Another rotor UAV, the Northrop Grumman Fire Scout, demonstrated at-sea landings and take-offs in January 2006.

Photo: DCNS.



i wonder if the firescout has such an auto land capability too. very interesting. any chance this auto landing gets incorporated into our S-70b for our frigates ?

homing - October 15, 2008 06:14 AM (GMT)
We are better off with MH-6X/AH-6X UAV version of the Little Bird helicopter than any fire scout with that miserable payload it. S-70B seahawks dun have any auto land capability as a OEM but the "cable to ship landing assist system is fine", why add cost then.

I remember only the EH-101/AW-101 Merlin or the newer versions Super Lynx helicopters may have a form of the "auto land capability" incorporated already.

stars - October 15, 2008 07:01 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (homing @ Oct 15 2008, 02:14 PM)
We are better off with MH-6X/AH-6X UAV version of the Little Bird helicopter than any fire scout with that miserable payload it. S-70B seahawks dun have any auto land capability as a OEM but the "cable to ship landing assist system is fine", why add cost then.

I remember only the EH-101/AW-101 Merlin or the newer versions Super Lynx helicopters may have a form of the "auto land capability" incorporated already.

oooh ! can elaborate more about this cable to ship thingy ? first time i m hearing something like that.

but in seastate 5 conditions. can it work at such levels ?

about firescout, i think it points the way forward. its a small scale demonstrator. if its feasible to have a rotary UAV of this size, a larger one for dedicated shipborne operations might be useful.

even in its current form and payload, firescout is a force-multiplier of untapped potential. imagine the applications and roles it may be able to perform.

Iowa_BB61 - October 15, 2008 07:25 AM (GMT)


QUOTE (Stars @ 15 OCT 2008)

QUOTE (Homing @ 15 OCT 2008)

We are better off with MH-6X/AH-6X UAV version of the Little Bird helicopter than any fire scout with that miserable payload it. S-70B seahawks dun have any auto land capability as a OEM but the "cable to ship landing assist system is fine", why add cost then.

I remember only the EH-101/AW-101 Merlin or the newer versions Super Lynx helicopters may have a form of the "auto land capability" incorporated already.



oooh ! can elaborate more about this cable to ship thingy ? first time i m hearing something like that. but in seastate 5 conditions. can it work at such levels ?

about firescout, i think it points the way forward. its a small scale demonstrator. if its feasible to have a rotary UAV of this size, a larger one for dedicated shipborne operations might be useful. even in its current form and payload, firescout is a force-multiplier of untapped potential. imagine the applications and roles it may be able to perform.



Homing is referring to the Beartrap or RAST (Recovery Assist, Secure and Traverse) system. Basically, a cable from the chopper is connected to a winch, full throttle is maintain, and it's than pulled on to the flight-deck.

It's able to function even in sea-state six, have to agree with homing - cheap and simple. No need for elaborate "automated ILS".

Iowa_BB61 - October 15, 2008 07:38 AM (GMT)


QUOTE (Homing @ 15 OCT 2008)

We are better off with MH-6X/AH-6X UAV version of the Little Bird helicopter than any fire scout with that miserable payload it.


AFAIK / IIRC, Block-III varients of the AH-64 Apache will be able to control Class-IV UAVs from inside the cockpit. They're meant to complement each other.

wd1 - October 15, 2008 09:16 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Iowa_BB61 @ Oct 15 2008, 03:38 PM)
QUOTE (Homing @ 15 OCT 2008)

We are better off with MH-6X/AH-6X UAV version of the Little Bird helicopter than any fire scout with that miserable payload it.


AFAIK / IIRC, Block-III varients of the AH-64 Apache will be able to control Class-IV UAVs from inside the cockpit. They're meant to complement each other.

that is a capability we could integrate in-house on our Apaches and UAVs in time.

opens many possibilities for off-board search, targeting and laser designation, allowing the valuable Apaches to emerge from cover only to fire missiles; plus enhanced networking and connectivity.

stars - October 15, 2008 10:54 AM (GMT)
here's an interesting read

its abit old and its definitely outdated

http://ftp.fas.org/irp/doddir/usaf/conops_uav/index.html

but its interesting to note : the model that's been critiqued as most vulnerable and likely to get hit by SAMs , is also the model that's going to be acquired in massive numbers and new models. the MQ-9 and the 1b.

really interesting. and current reports of how UAVs are now CAS platforms are showing how much UAV operations have changed since the last 13-15 years.

anyone knows (is this under OSA ?) what doctrine or how the UAV fits under our combat structure ? im aware of the UAV command but what will our roles be ? how are they distributed or fitted to our units ?

given that we use the Heron (searcher II ?) and the hermes 450 systems, is our doctrine more israeli based or given the recent use in combat by georgia and extensive deployments over iraq and afghanistan , more american in nature ?

the europeans appear to be playing catch up in terms of UAV development.

are they employed in EW ? SIGINT or COMINT ? really alot of potential.

stars - October 15, 2008 10:57 AM (GMT)
QUOTE
http://www.dsta.gov.sg/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1829&Itemid=401

FEATURE STORY

27 August 2001

Flying high in the virtual sky


Fancy flying a virtual Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV)?

The UAV training simulator, developed by the Defence Science & Technology Agency (DSTA), will be showcased to the public for the very first time at the Republic of Singapore Air Force (RSAF) Open House held on 1 - 2 Sep 01.

The public will have the opportunity to fly the virtual UAV on the training simulator. This hands-on experience will give them a better understanding of what RSAF UAV pilot trainees undergo as part of their training.

"I think it would be an eye opener for the public to try out the training simulator and have a first-hand experience of operating a virtual UAV", said DSTA’s Programme Manager, Mr Wang Jong Chin.

Conceptualised by DSTA and jointly developed with our strategic partners, the UAV training simulator helps the RSAF save at least $10 mil. per year in operational and maintenance costs as the need of using the actual UAVs during training is greatly reduced.

With the simulator, the RSAF’s training capabilities are enhanced as the UAV pilots can train anytime, with no airspace and weather constraints.

So step right up and pilot the virtual UAV.


hehehe... typical SAF. who are the "strategic partners"

stars - October 15, 2008 11:06 AM (GMT)
QUOTE

Singapore’s Minister for Defence Teo Chee Hean recently officiated at a parade to inaugurate the Republic of Singapore Air Force’s (RSAF) new Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) Command. UAV Command has been constituted as an integrated entity, with personnel from the Army, Navy & Air Force as well as from the Joint Staff. The new command will provide tactical support for operations, and they are also tasked with developing the armed forces’ capabilities and skills in unmanned systems operations.

The new command will operate Singapore’s 2 squadrons of Searcher II UAVs, which were used successfully during the multi-national Exercise Wallaby 2006. Mr. Teo also announced a new platform for Singapore: Elbit/Silver Arrow’s Hermes 450 UAV, which be designated H-450 in RSAF service. The H-450 has almost twice the endurance of the smaller Searcher IIs, and will be operated by the newly-established 116 Squadron. Given Singapore’s geography, a maritime patrol role is a near-certainty for these mid-range UAVs. Singapore MINDEF: Release | Mr. Teo’s Speech | UAV capsules.

The Hermes 450 is currently operated by Israel, by the UK as its new “Watchkeeper WK450” system, and by the USA’s Department of Homeland Security Border Patrol. It is also the USA’s Joint UAV Joint Test and Evaluation (JUAV-JT&E) platform.


really ? MPAs ?

come to think of it, i havent seen any hermes 450 flying over LCK area. only the searcher IIs


another interesting read :
http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/sab-uav/afrttech.htm

an excerpt
QUOTE
The study group identified a number of findings relative to the application of UAVs to Air Force roles and missions:

1)UAVs have significant potential to enhance the ability of the Air Force to project combat power in the air war.
2)UAVs have the ability (range, persistence, survivability, and altitude) to provide significant surveillance and observation data economically, compared with current manned aircraft approaches.
3)UAVs have the potential to accomplish tasks that are now, for either survivability or other reasons, difficult for manned aircraft including counterair (cratering runways and attacking aircraft shelters), destroying or functionally killing chemical warfare/biological warfare (CW/BW) manufacturing and storage facilities, and suppression of enemy air defenses.
4)UAVs can be weaponized in the near-term1 (perhaps using advanced versions of the Tier vehicles), using an existing weapon and hypervelocity kinetic energy penetrators with a family of warheads.
5)Insufficient emphasis has been placed on human systems issues. Particularly deficient are applications of systematic approaches to allocating functions between humans and automation, and the application of human factors principles in system design.
6)Most other technologies necessary for platforms, propulsion, avionics, and mission systems are sufficiently mature to provide initial UAV capabilities of the nature described above. Further technology development can significantly enhance these capabilities.
7)New warhead technologies-namely intermetallic high temperature self- propagating synthesis reaction incendiary and "flying plate" concepts- can provide the UAV the ability to deliver compact weapons capable of inflicting devastating damage to a large number of fixed and moving targets.
8)Little thought has been given to appropriate responses to enemy use of UAVs, particularly those armed with air-to-air missiles.

In order to fully exploit the potential of UAVs, the Air Force must think of them as new and complete systems with new combinations of advantages and disadvantages, rather than as vehicles with a single outstanding characteristic or as a slight variant of an existing vehicle. Thus, advances must be made across the board, including concepts of operation, platform, weapon, mission systems technologies, and especially, human systems.


stars - October 16, 2008 03:15 PM (GMT)
QUOTE
The Real Time Video Revolution

October 16, 2008: The U.S. Army and Air Force are so anxious to get as many UAVs to Afghanistan, or aircraft that can act as UAVs (like fighters with targeting pods, or other manned aircraft with real time video capability), because commanders have discovered that "persistent video" is a crucial battlefield advantage. Time and again, in Iraq and Afghanistan, when the ground commander had enough airborne RTV (real time video), the enemy was at a severe disadvantage. Put simply, with enough RTV, you could see nearly everything the enemy was doing, while the enemy had much less awareness of what U.S. forces were up to, or about to do. Add to that night-vision devices, thermal sensors, and smart bombs and missiles, and you have a combination that produces all those lop-sided victories you read about.

How much RTV is enough? It depends on the battle, but half a dozen Predators (or similar UAVs), or manned aircraft with similar capabilities, will usually do it. Add a few of the micro-UAVs and helicopter gunships (who also have night vision devices, but usually can't share their RTV), and you have the battlefield covered. Where the RTV is really crucial is in "preparing the battlefield." For example, you get a tip that the bad guys are operating in a certain area. Maybe it's a mountain valley in Afghanistan, or a village outside Baghdad. If you can put two or three UAVs over the area for a day or so, you can detect any hostile operations in progress. While many of the enemy are on to this possibility, they cannot stay hidden from the RTV at all times, especially at night (when the cooler temperatures make it easier for the heat sensors to pick out who is moving around down there.) Even Special Forces scouts on stakeout (usually in some remote area, in pursuit of a terrorist big shot) can use some RTV from above to make sure their subject does not slip away.

Once the RTV has detected the enemy up to something, you put some more aircraft up there to follow the bad guys in real time. Since sensors are now accurate enough to tell if weapons are being carried (and what kind), you can sometimes start the battle, as soon as it's obvious the bad guys are up to no good, with some smart munitions (Hellfire missiles, or GPS guided bombs, rockets or artillery shells). Usually, you want to send in ground troops eventually, if only to take prisoners and collect documents. But at times the enemy has taken refuge among civilians, and the ground troops are needed to go take care of that delicate situation.

What is really new is the "persistent" UAVs, which can stake out a location for days, until the enemy shows their hand. In the last decade, sensors have gotten smaller, cheaper and more powerful. That, and the smart weapons, which often allow much of the finding and killing to be done entirely from the air, has revolutionized warfare. But it all starts with the RTV, which is best delivered via UAVs. And that's why the army, air force and marines are trying to get as many UAVs, as quickly as they can.


edit : forgot to put the link in. here you go

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htairw/ar...s/20081016.aspx

gary1910 - October 16, 2008 05:05 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (stars @ Oct 15 2008, 07:06 PM)
really ? MPAs ?

come to think of it, i havent seen any hermes 450 flying over LCK area. only the searcher IIs

You can actually see it flying? :unsure:

My time in late 80s, I could only hear the engine of the Hunter UAV, tried to look for it but can't see at all, probably too high to be seen but certainly near enough to hear it.

During GW2, some Iraqi surrendered themselves to Pioneer UAV, they could hear it becos it flew low enough for them to hear it, but I dun think it could be seen by eyeballs Mk1 or heard if it is flying high enough.

QUOTE
Desert Shield/Storm Anecdote The surrender of Iraqi troops to an unmanned aerial vehicle did actually happen. All of the UAV units at various times had individuals or groups attempt to signal the Pioneer, possibly to indicate willingness to surrender. However, the most famous incident occurred when USS Missouri (BB 63), using her Pioneer to spot 16 inch gunfire, devastated the defenses of Faylaka Island off the coast near Kuwait City. Shortly thereafter, while still over the horizon and invisible to the defenders, the USS Wisconsin (BB 64) sent her Pioneer over the island at low altitude. When the UAV came over the island, the defenders heard the obnoxious sound of the two-cycle engine since the air vehicle was intentionally flown low to let the Iraqis know that they were being targeted. Recognizing that with the "vulture" overhead, there would soon be more of those 2,000-pound naval gunfire rounds landing on their positions with the same accuracy, the Iraqis made the right choice and, using handkerchiefs, undershirts, and bedsheets, they signaled their desire to surrender. Imagine the consternation of the Pioneer aircrew who called the commanding officer of Wisconsin and asked plaintively, "Sir, they want to surrender, what should I do with them?"


Then there was this Apache clip where it was about 3km away during the night and with it's thermal viewer , detected 2 insurgents laying IED on the road, the veiwer magnification as if it is abt only 100m away but actual fact it is 3km away and those insurgents cannot even hear the large rotor of the Apache, so in reality, if UAV is high and far enough, you could be monitored by it w/o you knowing it.

Here the link:
Vid

stars - October 17, 2008 01:33 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (gary1910 @ Oct 17 2008, 01:05 AM)
QUOTE (stars @ Oct 15 2008, 07:06 PM)
really ? MPAs ?

come to think of it, i havent seen any hermes 450 flying over LCK area. only the searcher IIs

You can actually see it flying? :unsure:

My time in late 80s, I could only hear the engine of the Hunter UAV, tried to look for it but can't see at all, probably too high to be seen but certainly near enough to hear it.

During GW2, some Iraqi surrendered themselves to Pioneer UAV, they could hear it becos it flew low enough for them to hear it, but I dun think it could be seen by eyeballs Mk1 or heard if it is flying high enough.


our searcher IIs are very noisy :)

and they are low flying prop aircraft. can go LCK on a happy excursion and you can hear the searcher IIs. look around and u'd find them often enough. UAV command's base is located somewhere nearby AFAIK.

the UAV's have this dead give away humming sound. if you hear the humming means that there's one overhead or nearby.

i never did see a hermes in action but the searcher II very often. its like you know the YFC cessenas/pipers (cant remember) ? something like them. small but really noisy. can identify them by the noise.

bcoy - October 17, 2008 01:39 AM (GMT)
The UAVs are indeed noisy. We hear them first. Then we see them. Quite a common sight on clear days.

Hermes - the last I heard, crews were still training in the host country.

Xerovix - October 17, 2008 12:05 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (bcoy @ Oct 17 2008, 09:39 AM)
The UAVs are indeed noisy. We hear them first. Then we see them. Quite a common sight on clear days.

Hermes - the last I heard, crews were still training in the host country.

during a major ex more than a year ago, we could see a sII not only in day time but also at night.... red and red lights :P

noisy piece of flying uav. :rolleyes:

IceStorm - October 17, 2008 10:40 PM (GMT)
when i was in australia... i remember clearly hearing the SII during the day time and see the light at night too.

but the on hindsight...

just think... at night... sound should be louder... yet we heard no sound.. if not for the blinking lights... we wont even knew the SII were right above us.


stars - October 18, 2008 04:56 PM (GMT)
QUOTE
UAVs
SubscribeYou are in: Home › UAVs › News Article
DATE:17/10/08
SOURCE:Flight International
Elbit offers maritime version of Hermes-1500
By Arie Egozi

Elbit Systems plans to display at the Paris air show next year a maritime mission version of its Hermes-1500 unmanned air vehicle it is now offering.

The maritime version is equipped with a synthetic aperture radar, electronic intelligence and and electro-optical payloads. The company claims it has taken a "totally new approach to maritime patrol" with the UAV's sensor package being operated from a single command post.Developed at what Elbit describes as a "slow pace" the company hopes it will become a leading UAV product that replaces manned maritime patrol aircraft.

"We offered this UAV too early. The potential users were not ready to accept it but we believe that this moment is approaching and then we will have a proven system," says Elbit's UAV division marketing vice president, Eli Yitzhaki.

The Hermes-1500 is capable of carrying 400kg (880lb) of different payloads and has the power output to operate these payloads for missions over 24h. The 15m (49ft) wing span, twin engine aircraft has a fully autonomous flight capabilty, a maximum take-off weight of 1,750kg, a cruising speed of 130kt (240km/h) and an operational ceiling of more than 33,000ft.


Lalee answered ?

stars - October 19, 2008 02:46 PM (GMT)
QUOTE

USAF Laying Out 4-Decade UAV Plan
By gayle s. putrich
Published: 17 Oct 16:09 EDT (20:09 GMT)


The U.S. Air Force's Unmanned Aircraft Systems Task Force is set to brief the new service chief and Defense Secretary Robert Gates Dec. 15 on the long-term future of UAVs.

The task force is laying out a road map for UAVs all the way to 2047, the Air Force's centennial, said Col. Eric Mathewson, director of the Air Force Unmanned Aircraft Systems Task Force at the C4ISR Integration conference in Arlington, Va., Oct. 17.
Related Topics


"I wish I could say more about it now," Mathewson said, but did disclose that it will outline technological decisions, procurement, personnel needs and capabilities for the future.

That future will include something of a change in mind-set for Air Force intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR), said Col. (select) Scott Murray, the Air Force headquarters special assistant for ISR transformation.

"ISR and intelligence missions are no longer support operations, they are the operations,"
Murray said. The service is still getting its collective brain around the domain-neutral demands of persistent global ISR, he said, but transformation and moves towards more joint ways of doing things are slowly but surely coming.

"Trust is what it really comes down to," Murray said: trust that the ISR assets any war fighter needs will be where they are supposed to be when they are supposed to be there.

stars - October 22, 2008 03:37 AM (GMT)
no global hawk ?

no fear ! china has soaring dragon

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htairfo/a...s/20081021.aspx

QUOTE

Soaring Dragon Chases Global Hawk
October 21, 2008: China is developing a new UAV, similar to the U.S. RQ-4 Global Hawk. The Chinese aircraft is the Xianglong (Soaring Dragon). It is about half the size of the Global Hawk, at 7.5 tons, with a 45 foot wingspan and a .65 ton payload. Max altitude will be 57,000 feet and range will be 7,000 kilometers. It has a faster cruising speed (750 kilometers an hour) than the RQ-4.

The U.S. Air Force is currently buying the B version of the RQ-4 Global Hawk UAVs, at a cost of $58 million each. This version is larger (wingspan is 15 feet larger, at 131 feet, and it's four feet longer at 48 feet) than the A model, and can carry an additional two tons of equipment. To support that, there's a new generator that produces 150 percent more electrical power. The RQ-4 has a range of over 22,000 kilometers and a cruising speed of 650 kilometers an hour.

The first three RQ-4Bs entered service in 2006. At 13 tons, the Global Hawk is the size of a commuter airliner (like the Embraer ERJ 145), but costs nearly twice as much. Global Hawk can be equipped with much more powerful, and expensive, sensors. These more the double the cost of the aircraft. These "spy satellite quality" sensors (especially AESA radar) are usually worth the expense, because they enable the UAV, flying at over 60,000 feet, to get a sharp picture of all the territory it can see from that altitude. The B version is supposed to be a lot more reliable. Early A models tended to fail and crash at the rate of once every thousand flight hours.

The Chinese Xianglong is intended for maritime patrol, as is a U.S. Navy model of the RQ-4. The Xianglong recently conducted taxi-tests, which was the first time it was shown to the public. The shorter range of this UAV is apparently attributable to the lower capabilities of the Chinese aircraft engine industry. Flight testing will begin next year, and the Xianglong may enter limited service in 2-3 years.


http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defen...83-2b515804119f

there's even a video of the china-hawk on the ares blog

QUOTE
The UAV clearly resembles the Global Hawk in configuration, but the relatively small size of the engine (here seen without its full nacelle) has caused some comment. Data displayed at Zuhai showed the Xianglong to be 14.3m long, with a 25m span, a takeoff weight of 7,500kg with a payload of 650kg and a cruise altitude of 18km.

Forgive the 'foreign" units, but that makes the Xianglong substantially smaller than the Block 20 Global Hawk, which has a 39.9m span, 14,630kg takeoff weight and 1,360kg payload. No endurance was given for the Chinese UAV, but the stated range of 7,500km is much less than the Global Hawk's quoted 22,800km ferry range, But interestingly the Xianglong is faster - a cruise speed of 750km/h compared with Global Hawk's 650km/h.

I suspect that explains the smaller engine - a turbojet or low-bypass turbofan versus the high-bypass turbofan powering Global Hawk. That may be a reflection of China's engine technology, or a philosophy that favours dash speed over loiter endurance.

Bill Sweetman adds:  Alternatively, since China has not previously had a requirement for a domestically built turbofan cleared for high-altitude operation, this is a pure jet for early flight demos. The G-Hawk team were lucky in that Allison (as it then was) had developed the AE 3007 for the Citation X.


an interesting pakistani forum has even more pics of chinese UAVs underdevelopment.

a dark star type UAV, called the anjian "dark/silent sword", supposedly with stealth, a searcher II lookalike called the tianjin and the xianglong, chinese dragon global hawk ripoff. and all this, 2 years ago at the 2006 zhuhai airshow

http://www.defence.pk/forums/weapons-club/...ucav-china.html

-not from anyone's defence related site. all sites churned out using time and google-fu




stars - October 23, 2008 08:51 AM (GMT)
QUOTE
Shadow Learns To Accessorize

October 22, 2008: The U.S. Army has successfully tested a lightweight laser designator for its RQ-7 Shadow 200 UAV. Earlier this year, a lightweight satellite communications system was also approved for use in the RQ-7. This enables control via an operator back in the United States. These two devices are already used in the much heavier MQ-1 Predators (which weigh a ton and can carry 450 pounds of sensors and communications equipment.) The laser designator enables the RQ-7 to designate targets for air force aircraft carrying the more accurate laser guided bombs.

The Shadow UAVs weigh only 327 pounds each and can carry 56 pounds of equipment (usually a day or night vision camera and a transmitter). The Shadow 200 is eleven feet long and has a wingspan of 12.75 feet. It can fly as high as 19,000 feet (out of range of small arms). The Shadow has a range of about 50 kilometers and can stay in the air for about six hours.

While the RQ-7 is going to be replaced by the RQ-1C in the next few years, there is an enormous demand for UAVs just now. So the RQ-7s will be worked hard (they have already flown nearly 400,000 hours), and will probably be heavily used until worn out or lost in action.

The army and air force are cooperating on developing and maintaining the Predator replacement, the slightly larger (1.4 ton), and more capable, MQ-1C Sky Warrior. The air force will be operating their Sky Warriors from the United States, using the satellite communication capability, and is trying to convince the army that this would be they way for them to go.

Keeping the operators back in the U.S. is called "reach back" and is increasingly popular with the military. It's expensive, time consuming, and often dangerous, to send people to a combat zone. Inexpensive satellite communications, and increasing use of computers, has allowed more and more support troops to be left behind. It works, even though it does prevent some face-to-face opportunities. This has not been a problem. And even when it is, the military is increasingly using video conferencing.

The army is also developing UGVs (unmanned ground vehicles), and these could be run by stateside operators as well. All this is part of the trend towards increasing automation and remote-control in warfare. Combat has increasingly become a matter of issuing the command; "send in the droids," and leave the people at home

stars - October 23, 2008 08:54 AM (GMT)
QUOTE
RoboChoppers Head For The Hills

October 22, 2008: U.S. SOCOM (Special Operations Command) has ordered ten of the new A160T Hummingbird UAVs. This is a new vehicle, that just completed about a decade of development. Deliveries were not expected to begin until next year, but SOCOM is getting its A160Ts by the end of the year.

The A160T was developed as part of a U.S. Department of Defense effort to develop a helicopter UAV that could stay in the air for over twelve hours at a time. The most recent test had a A160T Hummingbird staying in the air for 18.7 hours, at altitudes up to 15,000 feet, while carrying a 300 pound load (to simulate a typical sensor package). This set a record for unmanned UAVs weighing between half a ton and 2.5 tons. When the A160T landed, it still had 90 minutes worth of fuel left. The first flight test of the Hummingbird Unmanned Aerial Vehicle took place six years ago.

The A160T is a small helicopter, able to fly under remote control or under its own pre-programmed control. The three ton vehicle has a top speed of 255 kilometers an hour, and was originally designed to operate for up to 40 hours carrying a payload of 300 pounds. Max payload is over half a ton. Maximum altitude was to be about 30,000 feet, and its advanced flight controls were to be capable of keeping it airborne in weather that would ground manned helicopters.

The A160T uses a commercial 300 horsepower automobile engine. This enables better control over speed, since turbines must run at nearly the same speed all the time. A piston engine can idle at 50 percent power. That control made the UAV better at what helicopters do best, just stay in one place. But in addition, that long endurance was to translate into 4,500 kilometers range. After the first flight test, it was believed the aircraft might be ready for production by 2006. That was too optimistic. Helicopters are complex beasts, and things take longer.

The Hummingbird can also be armed, and one has been configured with stubby wings, capable of carrying eight (hundred pounds each) Hellfire missiles. The U.S. Navy is interested in the A160, because it can operate off any ship with a helipad. SOCOM wants the A160T because it can hover, and because it is actually very quiet. The chopper can deliver supplies to Special Forces teams at night, as well as assist with intelligence gathering. Moreover, the A160T can carry new sensor that can detect people moving through forests or thick bush below. Most likely, the SOCOM A160Ts are headed for Afghanistan, where are plenty of forests up in the mountains. Like other UAVs, the A160T carries the usual assortment of day and night video cameras, plus laser rangefinder and laser designator.

The A160 has some competition in the RQ-8B Fire Scout, which can stay in the air for up to eight hours at a time (five hour missions are more common), has a top speed of 230 kilometers an hour, and can operate over 200 kilometers from its controller (on land, or a ship.) The RQ-8A is being developed for use on smaller navy ships, as well as with army combat units.

The U.S. Army version of the RQ-8A will be particularly useful supporting combat operations in urban areas. Both the RQ-8A and the A160T carry day and night cameras, GPS and targeting gear (laser range finders and designators). The RQ-8 is based on a two seat civilian helicopter (the Schweizer Model 333), and has a maximum takeoff weight of 1.5 tons. With its rotors folded (for storage on ships), the RQ-8 is 23 feet long and 9.4 feet high. Max payload is 600 pounds, meaning it would probably carry hundred pound Hellfire, or 44 pound Viper Strike missiles. Each RQ-8 UAV costs about $8 million (including a share of the ground control equipment and some spares.) The flight control software enables the RQ-8 to land and take off automatically. The A160T is expected to have similar features, but cost at least 20 percent more. However, with this early order from SOCOM, the A160T has an opportunity to gain valuable combat experience. If the reviews are positive, the RQ-8A will lose market share to the "combat proven" A160T..


seems like we need something to detect through thick forest and bush too. might be useful for finding a certain MSK. i m quite surprised we didnt unleash the UAVs to hunt for him.

stars - November 2, 2008 10:41 AM (GMT)
QUOTE
Europe acts to strengthen mine countermeasures and develop naval UAV

By Brooks Tigner

9th September 2008

European defence ministries plan to pool their research funds to fill two major maritime requirements: new littoral mine countermeasures and the development of a maritime tactical unmanned air system (MTUAS).

The countries will move later this year to formally bring the projects under the European Defence Agency's (EDA's) managerial oversight, and to field their capabilities by around 2016, EU sources told Jane's.

Four EDA countries - France, Germany, Italy and Sweden - currently comprise the countermine support group, while six (Finland, France, Germany, Poland, Portugal and Spain) form the core of the MTUAS project.

The countermine goal "is especially urgent because there is a gap in capability across EU and NATO navies for dealing with mine threats in shallow littoral waters [less than 200 m]", said an EU official.

Those threats range from self-propelled, bottom-anchored and tethered mines to underwater barriers and anti-invasion devices. While national naval doctrines for dealing with these threats vary considerably, the official said there is a consensus among the four partner countries that the future technology should not be tied to a conventional dedicated mine countermeasures ship.

"They want modular capabilities and platform flexibility," said the official, adding that "a number of capability modules have been identified." These include: command and control; sweeping/jamming, neutralisation; localisation (including environmental assessment capability); and logistics.

stars - November 2, 2008 10:44 AM (GMT)
QUOTE
India readies large-scale UAV procurement programme

By Rahul Bedi

15 October 2008

India is planning to significantly upgrade its unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) capability over the next decade in order to enhance situational awareness along its land and maritime borders.

Official sources said the army was planning to procure a large number of manportable mini- and nano-UAVs with short-range intelligence, surveillance, reconnaissance and laser-designation capabilities, as well as the ability to detect nuclear, biological and chemical weapons inside enemy territory.

The army also intends to acquire weaponised UAVs similar to the General Atomics RQ-1 Predator, which can be armed with Hellfire missiles. These will be deployed largely along the disputed borders withPakistan and China.

At present, India operates around 70 Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI)-built Searcher Mk 1 and Mk 2 and Heron UAVs, as well as 30 Harpy ground attack drones designed to detect and destroy enemy radars.

"A larger number of UAVs would constitute an integral ingredient of the burgeoning network-centric warfare capability that all three Indian services are seeking to execute the full spectrum of war," a three-star Indian Air Force officer told Jane's.

edwin3060 - October 28, 2009 08:42 PM (GMT)
QUOTE
A U.N. human rights investigator warned the United States Tuesday that its use of unmanned warplanes to carry out targeted executions may violate international law.

Philip Alston said that unless the Obama administration explains the legal basis for targeting particular individuals and the measures it is taking to comply with international humanitarian law which prohibits arbitrary executions, "it will increasingly be perceived as carrying out indiscriminate killings in violation of international law."

Alston, the U.N. Human Rights Council's investigator on extrajudicial, summary and arbitrary executions, raised the issue of U.S. Predator drones in a report to the General Assembly's human rights committee and at a news conference afterwards, saying he has become increasingly concerned at the dramatic increase in their use, especially in Afghanistan and Pakistan, since June.

He said the U.S. response — that the Geneva-based council and the General Assembly have no role in relation to killings during an armed conflict — "is simply untenable."

"That would remove the great majority of issues that come before these bodies right now," Alston said. "The onus is really on the government of the United States to reveal more about the ways in which it makes sure that arbitrary executions, extrajudicial executions are not, in fact, being carried out through the use of these weapons."

Alston's warning comes as President Barack Obama is weighing how to overhaul the U.S. approach to the Afghan conflict.

Gen. Stanley McChrystal, the U.S. commander in Afghanistan, wants as many as 40,000 more troops while Vice President Joe Biden favors maintaining the current troop strength of around 68,000 and significantly increasing the use of unmanned drones and special forces for the kind of surgical anti-terror strikes that have been successful in Pakistan, Somalia and elsewhere.

Alston, a law professor at New York University, said that while there may be circumstances where the use of drones "to carry out targeted executions" is consistent with international law, this can only be determined in light of information on the legal basis for selecting certain individuals.

"What we need then is the U.S. to be more up front and say 'OK, we're prepared to discuss some aspects of this program,'" he said.

Alston said the U.S. should provide details on use of drones, disclose what precautions it takes to ensure the unmanned aircraft are used strictly for purposes consistent with international humanitarian law, and what measures exist to evaluate what happened when their weapons have been used.

"Otherwise, you have the really problematic bottom line -- which is that the Central Intelligence Agency is running a program which is killing significant numbers of people, and there is absolutely no accountability in terms of the relevant international laws," he said.


I just read this article and thought that it would be a good time to revive this thread. In retrospect we should have foreseen such objections.

xtemujin - October 10, 2011 03:48 AM (GMT)
Computer Virus Tracking US Drones
October 08, 2011
Military.com|by Bryant Jordan

Who’s watching the watchers?

That’s the question the defense officials are asking with the discovery that a computer virus has infected the U.S.-based control stations of Predator and Reaper drones, tracking every keystroke made by the pilots as they guide the vehicles on their missions.

The drones, which conduct reconnaissance and combat missions, continue to fly, according to an official interviewed by Reuters, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

“Something is going on, but it has not had any impact on the missions overseas,” the official said.

The military’s fleet of Predators and Reapers has evolved in capabilities, size and importance over the past decade, quickly moving from largely reconnaissance and intelligence-gathering aircraft to hunter-killers. Their use in targeting and killing suspected terrorists has been widely hailed by U.S. officials, though they’ve also spark controversy when strikes have led to the deaths of innocents.

Wired magazine, which first reported the story on Friday, said military network security specialists detected the virus in late September at the unmanned aerial vehicles’ computer system at Creech Air Force Base in Nevada.

Security technicians have been trying to eliminate the bug, but without success.

“We keep wiping it off, and it keeps coming back,” a source familiar with the network infection told Wired. “We think it’s benign. But we just don’t know.”

The security specialists aren’t sure whether the virus and its so-called “keylogger” payload were introduced intentionally or by accident, according to Wired. The magazine’s source said it could be a common piece of malware that just happened to make its way into UAVs’ networks.

They also don’t know how far it has spread, but they believe it has reached both into classified systems at the base, meaning that some secret data may have been captured by the keylogger and relayed to someone outside the authorized chain of command, the magazine was told.

Military officials are saying nothing in response to queries.

“We generally do not discuss specific vulnerabilities, threats, or responses to our computer networks, since that helps people looking to exploit or attack our systems to refine their approach,” Air Combat Command spokesman Lt. Col. Tadd Sholtis told Wired. “We invest a lot in protecting and monitoring our systems to counter threats and ensure security, which includes a comprehensive response to viruses, worms, and other malware we discover.”

http://www.military.com/news/article/compu...01075741&rank=2




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