Hello there and good day,
Chanced upon your forum (with the help of Google, of course) and found it to be informative. Thought I would just share with you a blog that my boy put up after his visit to LIMA (Langkawi, Malaysia) in 07.

Hope some of you get some info / news from it.

Have a great Sunday!

The address?

http://lima2009.blogspot.com/

On behalf of the milnuts, welcome to this forum.

We look forward to more of your contributions!

Thank you for your kind regards. Here are more updates about LIMA'09.

From NST online Malaysia 2009/12/09:

"The Langkawi International Maritime and Aerospace (LIMA) expo represents a gateway to the growing Asian defence and security market which is expected to be exceed US$350 billion (US$1.00=RM3.63) annually up to 2020." - Malaysian PM

Here is the link:

http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/NST/Tue...icle/index_html

The event will be held in Langkawi from Dec 1 to 5 next year at the Mahsuri International Exhibition Centre.

In other news:

Malaysia has yet to take delivery of six more Russian Sukhoi fighter jets, said Air Force Chief, General Tan Sri Azizan Ariffin today.

the link:

http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/NST/Tue...icle/index_html

Official website

http://www.lima2009.com.my/

Malaysia is once again proud to play host to the 10th edition of the LIMA Exhibition, which will be held from 1 – 5 December 2009 in Langkawi.

Organised by

HW LIMA Sdn. Bhd. 35F-1-6 & 35G-1-7, Jalan 2/27F, KLSC Section 5, 53300 Wangsa Maju, Kuala Lumpur, MALAYSIA.
tel: +603-4142 1699 fax: +603-4142 2699 email: hw5@hwlima.org

website:
www.lima2009.com.my

next year december.... the world could be in a steep recession.

it might end up with more satay store then defence stores.

From Bernama:

7 major corporations ink deals to signify their participation as exhibitors for LIMA 2009.

They are

BAE Systems (U.K.),
Boustead Naval Shipyard,
Eurocopter,
National Aerospace Defence Industries Sdn Bhd,
Thales Malaysia Sdn Bhd,
Sapura Group of Companies and
FINCANTIERI (Italy).

Extracted from:

http://www.bernama.com.my/bernama/v3/news_...s.php?id=377188

To: ICE STORM,
Re: Recession in 2009

Interesting observation. And a witty one about the satay stalls as well. :)

What are the members' thoughts about the Malaysian PM's statements taken from THE STAR?

... no compromise on defence despite economic woes... the recent pirate attack in the Gulf of Aden on two Malaysian oil tankers... is a prime example that governments cannot afford to relax where national security and the lives of its citizens are concerned.

“We need to be vigilant and continue improving our overall defence and security..."

The PM and ICE STORM provide food for thought...

"Should a government spend more during times of recession?"

The link to the article is here: http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=...3139&sec=nation

Have a great Sunday!

No compromise on defence despite economic woes? They just deferred the Nuri replacement due to economic woes.

Lives of its citizens are concerned? The ageing Nuris have caused quite a few deaths already. It can be argued that low equipment serviceability has and will kill more MAF soldiers than aggressors has/will.

I find that there is consistently a disconnect between what the "official" statements say and what happens on the ground. Other projects that come to mind as having been deferred due to economic woes include the wheeled AFV (Sibmas/Condor) replacement program and the ever deferred AEW/MPA program. I'm not an avid Malaysia Watcher so minor details escape me but I'm sure there are more, smaller, projects that are getting put back because of economic woes.

Spend more on what ... defence?

To clarify...

In general, the question is:

Should a government spend more during economic difficulties - such as a recession - in order to promote / stimulate the economy OR should a government be prudent and not embark on high costs projects?

=============
BUT IN PARTICULAR, since this forum is on military issues...
=============

Should a government spend more on DEFENCES / MILITARY products and services during economic challenging times?

This question arises from ICE STORM's thought-provoking input about Malaysia having more satay stalls than defence companies exhibiting in the upcoming LIMA 2009, as the world economy may be facing challenging times (steep recession, to quote him).

Isn't it better for a government (such as Malaysia) to focus on food instead - like the Malaysia, Agriculture, Horticulture and Agrotourism Exhibition 2008 (MAHA 2008)

link here: http://www.mahaexpo.com/

Well, the Keynesians will hold that a government should indeed spend more during a recession to provide a fiscal stimulus to the economy. Of course, the expenditure should be local. Therefore, if you subscribe to this school of economics, continued expenditure on local defence products and services during a recession cannot hurt. However, expenditure on, for example, public infrastructure is generally held to provide more efficient and prompt fiscal stimulus, but that was not the question.

In addition, national defence is a legitimate need that cannot be skimped on. How much each nation needs is open to debate, but there is a level below which it cannot safely fall. Recession or no, national defence must continue even if cut back. The gun is the foundation of the law.

Military products and services will not help unless they are local, buying foreign will only provide jobs for the exporter.

And Keynesian may work only it is apply to local context of that particular time.

During Great depression, US govt spent on public infrastructure to create more jobs to reduce high employment then.

With less jobless , the people in general will be able to spend more on goods & svcs, which in turn create higher demand for such goods & svcs,companies that provide them then able to sustain and less prone to sack more employees and perhaps even hire more.

So with this spiral effect, the country gradually has less unemployment, consumers spendings gradually back to normal, companies started to re-invest, banks started to flush with cash and provide money for such investment etc....i.e. crawl out of the Great Depression.

While that's pretty much the conventional wisdom, its truth is not undisputed. Some more recent scholarly work argue that interventions by the US government *prolonged* the depression so that it became the *Great* depression.

But even if the above is set aside and conventional wisdom taken for granted, don't forget that the bulk of the spending was on infrastructure and public works--stuff that do plausibly have positive impact on the wider economy. Think of the interstate highway, for instance. The case for spending on weapons, etc., is something else altogether.

(Note that the mere fact that the jobs are created in the local defense industry is neither here nor there--the government spending of tax money used to fund those jobs could just as well have created other jobs if left in private hands.)

the size of malaysia does afford it a certain sense of level of security which singapore cannot compete.

for malaysia... it could easily risk lowering its defence expenditures due to its size.

singapore OTOH... does not enjoy such luxury.... and needs to keep up its spending on defence to mitigate its small size.

but given singapore much bigger defence infrastructure and its larger impact on local economy... cutting spending in defence could actuall be a bad move....

this is especially so.. when singapore govt had already made a reputation for itself on issues of national defence spendings even in the worst of times....

thus any visible cut in defence spending could send the wrong signal that our economy is SO BAD... the govt is forced to cut defence spending.

Agree.

Disagree.

The advantage of size is only relevant in the structuring/disposition of forces and conduct of a shooting war. The expenditure to maintain these forces capabilities, in good/bad times, is pretty much a fixed overhead and irrespective of the size of the land.

Force Capabilities are not built up overnight. Even the simple statement of purchasing a squadron of SU-30 MKM entails a huge behind the scenes build up of logistics, personnel and infrastructure capabilities, over a few years, to achieve the final result of an operational fighter squadron. A decision to defer the current program will throw a lot of things out of kilter and most probably cost more in the long run.

Likewise, standing down battalions to a lower training status to cut cost will result in lost/diminished capabilities that will take months or longer to regenerate.

Disagree.

The bulk of big ticket items are still foreign purchases.

The military expenditure that does affect the local infrastructure falls mainly on ST Engg. Yet, ST Engg is not as reliant on the SAF as one might think. A simple perusal of ST's financial reports for YE2007 shows that 67% of it's total revenue actually comes from Commercial, non-military sales. Another statistic of note shows that VT, their US arm, accounts for about 28% of total group revenue. I doubt that ST is as reliant on the SAF as we think they are.

For sure some smaller contractors will be affected, but the overall effect, IINM, shouldn't be that great.

IMO, the reputation of maintaining our defence spending, even during down turns, is more a reflection of our fiscal prudence more than anything else. We have planned our expenditure in advance.

Also, I believe our budget and economy is reasonably transparent. If we are really doing so badly that we have to cut certain sectors, than it will show up regardless of whether it's the defence, health, education, etc budget that gets cut. We are not such a closed economy that poor performance can be hidden at all.

Here is an example that illustrates that procurement of military units is of a lower priority than "projects that will have a big impact on the country's development and people".

Najib: Copter deal review only when economy improves

link: http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?sec=n...ation%2F2836042

I was looking at the budget spending of developed countries on mil...

This site has an interesting breakdown of mil spending by countries:

http://www.warresisters.org/pages/piechart.htm

In descending order...

1. US
2. China
3. Russia
4. Britain
5. France
6. Japan
7. Germany
8. Saudi Arabia
9. South Korea
10. India
11. Brazil
12. Italy
13. Australia
14. Canada
15. Indonesia <=== interesting to note!!
16. The Netherlands

Seems that the developed countries are the ones spending a lot on mil. However, it is interesting to note that a country such as Myanmar spends quite a bit, too.

Extract from:

http://burmadigest.wordpress.com/2007/07/0...iture-in-burma/

"According to the International Institute for Strategic Studies, the junta’s military expenditures account for over 40 percent of national budget while Burma’s health and education spending is 0.4 percent and 0.5 percent respectively."

Unable to see a correlation between mil spending and the progress / development of a country...

thiis is total spending and not per capita spending right?

myanmar is a country which you need to take all statistics with a huge jar of salt. plus most of those money would have gone to you know where. quite meaningless stats if you ask me.

I'd suggest you check your source for accuracy with regards to Myanmar's statistics on Defence and Healthcare. I'm especially sceptical of sources whose primary agenda is the discreditation of an organisation/regime/whatever. eg. "Burma Digest - A Magazine Specialising in Human Right Affairs of Burma"

WHO statistics for Myanmar indicates an expenditure of 0.7 ~ 1.8% on Government Expenditure on Healthcare as a percentage of Total Government Expenditure. The actual statistics, when including external sources such as grants, administered by the Government becomes 0.8 ~ 3.3% as a percentage of Total Government Expenditure. These are for the periods from 1995 to 2006. Singapore by comparison is 5.2 ~ 9.4%

"Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics"

Statistics can lie. Singular point Stats don't tell the whole story. "Healthcare Expenditure as a percentage of Total Govt Expenditure" seems to indicate that Singapore only outspends Myanmar by 3 times in healthcare. The truth is, the Singapore gahmen outspends Myanmar, on healthcare, by nearly a hundred-fold in "Per Capita Govt Expenditure on Healthcare". The actual figures are 58 ~ 191 times after indexing for Purchasing Power Parity.

You can get all the above figures from The WHO Statistical Information System

Likewise, your quoted figures for defence expenditures are meaningless and likely to be inaccurate. For one, Singapore definately spends more than Indonesia in absolute terms. Yet Singapore is not on the list ... which begs the question - which other countries are not on the list and how far down will Indonesia be if they were? The table is compiled by the "War Resisters League" ... hmmmmmm ... see my comment on sources with agendas. ;)

Just a short comment on "Lies, damned lies, and statistics" (Benjamin Disraeli) and that "there are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." (Mark Twain)

I would think very few well read or thinking individuals would believe all the stats or numbers thrown at them.

I would also tend to "believe" that many of those who came up with / produce the numbers or stats would actually believe them to be true. I bet if we were to ask those guys/gals who worked on the numbers for the mil spending, they would stick to their GUNS and maintain that the numbers they obtained are true.

Hence, what is the TRUTH? and to who is a "TRUTH" true?

But that's getting to be philosophical...and I guess should be discussed in another topic or forum such as:

http://militaryphilosophy.blog.com/

http://www.amazon.com/Military-Philosophy/lm/3KWGJNDMYVNB4

and for reading "pleasure":

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/saas/pellegrp.pdf

Okay. Maybe "inaccurate" was too harsh a word. I don't doubt that the figures being thrown up are factual and "true".

What I was trying to get at was that -
i) without context, the figures quoted don't mean a thing.
ii) without other colloborative indicators, singular indicators can be misleading.
iii) private, NGOs (such as the 2 agencies you quoted) with an agenda often have an axe to grind. While they may be presenting factual data, they often skew the data to suit their purpose.

So what exactly is your point then?

You started the thread on LIMA updates and quickly went O/T with solicitations for opinions on Malaysia's defence stance in a recession. While threads always go O/T anyway, as the thread starter, you do have a certain responsibility not to take your own thread O/T. ;)

Also, if you solicit opinions, at least engage in a reasonable debate or commentary on the points brought up. I'm still trying to figure where you're coming from and what you're trying to get at. :P

Sounds like an interesting read ... have you read it yourself. Care to give us a summary?

cheers :)

AIROD which stands for ‘Aircraft Inspection, Repair & Overhaul Depot’ is one of the exhibitors of LIMA'07. We can expect to see the company in LIMA'09 too. AIROD is a fully Malaysian owned company and that provides quality services to regional and global customers.

The following is taken from NST Malaysia today:

Airod to repair, overhaul crashed C-130H Hercules aircraft

Malaysia's leading aerospace maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) company, Airod, has been entrusted the responsibility to restore a C-130H Hercules aircraft belonging to Derco Aerospace Inc's which crashed in Gafsa, Tunisia, 12 years ago.

More of the news here:

http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/NST/Thu...icle/index_html

Remember ICE STORM's remarks

"next year december.... the world could be in a steep recession."

One of the highlights of LIMA is of course the air shows. Here's a piece of news about an air show.

"The annual Cape Girardeau Regional Air Festival will go on a one-year hiatus, the city announced this week."

Link here:

http://www.semissourian.com/article/200812...69895/-1/news01

...the soft economy influenced the decision to wait another year between air shows. Cape Girardeau has been subjected to a series of layoffs and business closings over the last several months, including 228 job cuts at show sponsor Noranda.

but

also said that "...expects to deliver a bigger, better show in 2010."

M’sia to get its first submarine in July - The Star Friday January 9, 2009 MYT 8:20:25 PM

KOTA KINABALU: Malaysia’s first submarine KD Tunku Abdul Rahman is expected to arrive at the Sepanggar navals base in July this year.

Royal Malaysian Navys Region II Commander Laksamana Pertama Syed Zahiruddin Putra Syed Osman said the delivery of the second submarine KD Tun Abdul Razak was scheduled to arrive by year end.

"We are now undertaking specific preparation to accommodate the submarine at our base here, he said when marking the navy’s quality day celebrations.

He said among other preparations was for the building of quarters for the submarines crew and their families.

Scorpene To Berth At Sepanggar Bay In July - BERNAMA

KOTA KINABALU, 9 Jan (Bernama) -- One of Malaysia's two newly acquired Scorpene submarines will arrive at the Royal Malaysian Navy's second largest base in Sepanggar Bay in July.

RMN Region II commander First Admiral Syed Zahiruddin Putra Syed Osman said preparations were being made to receive the submarine, KD Tun Abd Rahman.

"These include building the infrastructure and quarters for the crew and their families," he told reporters after opening the RMN's Division II Quality Day at the Sepanggar Bay here Friday.

He said the second Scorpene, KD Tun Abdul Razak would arrive at the end of the year.

<<<< IN TIME FOR LIMA2009?




On RMN's achievements last year, he singled out the swift intervention of a Malaysian naval ship in rescuing a Chinese cargo vessel from being plundered by pirates in the Aden Bay, Somalia in "Ops Fajar" last month.

"We are proud of the crew, for which our efforts had gained international recognition," he said.

Nineteen officers and 153 men from the division received outstanding service certificates at the function.

Hi there,

More news about how the economic situation of the world will affect the growth of the Aerospace and Maritime industry...

The Malaysian MRO company AIROD is confident of revenue growth in 2009.

Meantime, you might want to check out the updated blog on LIMA 2009 here:

http://lima2009.blogspot.com/

Cheers for the coming "new" year! ... the OX!

Here's an update of the Malaysian Submarines:

Extracted from NST 2009/01/29

Malaysia has taken delivery of its first submarine -- a Scorpene built by French military shipyard DCNS in partnership with Spanish shipyard Navantia.
A Royal Malaysian Navy (RMN) statement yesterday said a delegation lead by Nazri Siron, secretary of the Defence Ministry's Procurement Division, took delivery of the submarine, named KD Tunku Abdul Rahman after Malaysia's first prime minister at the French naval base in Toulon, on Saturday.

Full article here:
http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/NST/Thu...icle/index_html

Update on Shipborne Weapons here:
http://lima2009.blogspot.com/2009_01_01_archive.html

A couple of updates..

1) Tomorrow (Feb 15) marks the 87th anniversary of THE FALL OF SINGAPORE during WWII.

Read article here:
http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/NST/Wed...icle/index_html

In the article,

A historian by the name of Chye Kooi Loong said the British lost the fight "simply because of internal factors".

Among these factors were:

disunity, inter-service rivalry, a lack of urgency, an obsolete working culture, unsuitable diet, and miscommunication between the troops (many of whom were young men from India) and their British officers.

Anyone interested to START A THREAD to discuss whether the defeat was merely due to internal factors? If so, I would like to start one...

Ever thought what would have happened to Singapore if the British were not defeated?... Game for a new THREAD?


2) THE BATTLE OF BUKIT CHANDU

Read the article here:
http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/NST/Wed...icle/index_html


3) The beginnings of LIMA and an interesting book about the man who had the vision.

Link here: http://lima2009.blogspot.com/

make sure you first read the book Operation Matador by Dr. Ong Chit Chung

Hi,
If fellow MNs wish to continue the "The Fall of Singapore"..may I invite you you to carry on the discussion on a thread I have started......

Just read the first page...and contnue from the last page...


http://militarynuts.com/index.php?showtopic=1223&st=75


15)Battle of Singapore, 1941 ]---------------(MNs, Invitation to post! As this analysis could be interesting (just thinking............Forward Def. doctrine), hope MNs could contribute )

Came across this piece of news...

"March is Satay Month For MAS's Economy Class"

For the whole of this month, satay will be on the menu for Malaysia Airlines passengers travelling on Economy Class to domestic and selected Asean countries.
...the... signature satay dish, which has been recognised to be world-class...

Click here for details:
http://web6.bernama.com/aviation_news/news...=393574&lang=en

I was reminded of fellow member ICE STORM's comment about satay on Dec 10 of last year...

"next year december.... the world could be in a steep recession.
it might end up with more satay store then defence stores."

Maybe satay is the key to the aerospace industry success?... or survival? ... ;)

Another lima2009 link for your perusal:
http://www.lima2009.net

What has satay got to do with LIMA 09?

In response to your question... about what has satay got to do with it.

It stems from a discussion that dates back to December last year. (If you have read or followed this thread you would understand.)

When this thread was started, the objective was to keep us updated about the event.

However, there was a witty remark made by ICE STORM. It was regarding how the impending (at that time ), now REAL, economic crisis would affect the aerospace industry - IN PARTICULAR, LIMA 09.

It was mentioned that there could be more satay stalls than aerospace exhibitors this year as the industry would be affected.

It became true for the industry to a certain extent: we have seen signs of that happening. Refer also to earlier post about the cancellation of an airshow because of the economy downturn.

So, when I read about Malaysia Airlines serving SATAY as part of a way to boost its image / business, I thought it was interesting that ICE STORM had used SATAY as a symbol/comparison/cynicism... to paint a picture about the industry in economic challenging times.

I'm thinking of going to LIMA 2009 in December.

Which hotel would you recommend to stay and near to the exhibition area.

Thanks.

We stayed in Zackry Guest House the last trip. I've booked a room myself. The twin air-con rooms are fully booked, most likely from the M'sians cos we took their rooms the last trip and cut short their visit. Very basic no frills type, abundant mosquitoes as well. I suggest you look for two more pple to share a 3-bed air-con room if you want to bunk with us.

http://www.zackryguesthouse.langkawinetworks.com/

Its not near the exhibition area but its not difficult to go there. We rented a taxi van the last time and the driver was very helpful. If you like, send me an email and I can include you in our infrequent mailing list.

I'm trying to meet up with the organizers in July. They claimed to be able to provide a tentative list of the aircraft participating by then.

Thanks for the heads up bro.

I'm interested if there are a few of the MN guys going to the LIMA 2009.

Definitely there will be people who are going, even if you have to go alone its worth it. IMHO Lima is the best military airshow in SE Asia. One morning and one afternoon flying performance each, lots of photo opportunities as well from different angles.

Last trip we had an airasia a330 formation with red arrows, missed the F-111 formation with red arrows though.

With budget airline tickets and accommodations, you can't find a better reason not to go unless you are tied up with work or family.

I concur. :)

Thanks.

HW LIMA Exhibitions has invited me to the LIMA '09 media night, anyone keen to come along as well?

Friday, 17th July 2009 at 1900 at
National Press Club
84, Jalan Tangsi, 50480 Kuala Lumpur

Have a safe trip bro, I couldn't make it as I'm working on those days. :ph43r:

List of participants will be out next week.

More details later.

Forgot to mention their sub will be making its appearance at LIMA. RSN sending ships as well.