From - www.asiaone.com -

Singapore offers helicopters for Aussie fires: PM

Tue, Feb 10, 2009
AFP

SINGAPORE - Singapore has offered Canberra the use of a fleet of helicopters based in Australia to battle wildfires that have claimed 173 lives and razed entire towns, Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong said.

"If it would be helpful to your efforts, Singapore can offer the use of our Super Puma helicopters currently stationed in Oakey for your relief efforts," Lee said in a letter to his Australian counterpart, Kevin Rudd.

"We are also ready to help in any other way that we can," he added in the letter, released by Singapore's foreign ministry late Monday.

The Super Puma helicopters are suitable for search and rescue operations and to transport people and equipment.

Because of its limited local airspace, Singapore has stationed 12 Super Pumas in Oakey, Queensland for more than a decade under an agreement with the Australian government to allow its air force to conduct training exercises.

Lee also said he was "deeply saddened" to learn of the loss of lives and extensive damage caused by the Australian fires.

US President Barack Obama has also offered help in fighting the blazes, the White House said. -AFP

can our chinooks be used to dump water on the fire spots?

The fire fighting system used by the RSAF utilised an underslung helicopter bucket, this can certainly be carried by the chinook. I believe there are also modular water containers for the hercules.

problem with oz is that water supplies are also at all time low thanks to droughts in fire hit areas. RSAF choppers may have to make a long journey to get one chopper load of water.

think it would be more effective to save lives and conduct medevac activities rather than act as firefighters. waste of air-resources.

It is the right thing to do.

Even though the SPs there may not be equipped with the right equipment (eg heli-slung loads to carry water etc), at least the choppers there can perform other roles (eg SAR, logistics etc) and thereby relief other Aussie choppers from other roles where their own choppers are in a better position to fight the fires.

In such times, every extra equipment counts.

They are as close as we get to an ally in the region. We should offer help. And it also protrays a positive and dynamic image of the SAF.

so, can the chinooks reach Oz under their own power? probably with refuelling support.

i think it'd be great if we can send c130s and air drop fire suppressing foam (like the kind used to suppress aviation fires)

more effective and useful than trying to extinguish flames.

any word on sending the DART SCDF people over ? they would likely be more directly useful and more

any official report on australia's point of view ? did they accept or reject our offer ?

The DART team may not be suitable as i don't think they are trained for wild fires of such magnitude. Even Ozzie fire-fighters with lots of experience are killed in such massive fire storms.

SCDF does have a dedicated overseas deployment on standby 24/7, they're activated under "operation lionheart" and was recently send to tackle forest fires in indonesia.

link

World responds to Vic bushfire disaster
February 11, 2009, 12:14 am


Australia has welcomed an outpouring of support from global friends - and even some foes - in response to the Victorian bushfires as an "expression of our common humanity".

When tragedy haunts neighbours and allies, Australia is usually among the first to offer a hand.

And now, as the nation reels from the weekend inferno that has claimed at least 181 lives, a growing number of countries are returning the favour with messages of support and offers of assistance.

Traditional allies like the United States, Britain and New Zealand have been joined by nations like Andorra, Brazil and, even, Iran , in offering their sympathies.

US President Barack Obama called Prime Minister Kevin Rudd to offer his prayers for the people of Victoria, and the nation.

"President Obama said that we should know in Australia that the prayers of himself, his wife Michelle, their family and of the American people are with the people of Victoria, people of Australia," Mr Rudd told parliament.

Emergency Management Australia and the Victorian government are sorting through a growing number of offers of assistance.

The US has offered the expertise of 35 American firefighting chiefs, aviation managers, planning section chiefs and specialists in land rehabilitation.

"The United States Department of the Interior is in discussions with the government of Victoria on the provision of personnel and assistance," Mr Rudd said.

Pope Benedict XVI sent his condolences to the Governor-General, Quentin Bryce.

"The Holy Father commends the deceased to the loving mercy of almighty God, and upon their grieving families and all those suffering from loss of property and destruction of land he invokes divine strength and consolation," the Pope's message read.

He added he was also praying for those involved in providing assistance to the victims of the disaster.

New Zealand is sending 100 firefighters and Singapore has offered a fleet of Super Puma helicopters.

In a letter to Mr Rudd, Singapore's Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong volunteered the helicopters currently stationed at Oakey in Queensland for the relief effort.

"We are also ready to help in any other way that we can," he said.

In a letter to Foreign Minister Stephen Smith, Japan's Foreign Minister Hirofumi Nakasone extended "any cooperation" necessary from the Japanese.

Mr Smith has also spoken to Indian Foreign Minister Pranab Mukherjee, who offered assistance, and Iran's Foreign Minister Mottaki Manouchehr, who sent wishes of solidarity.

China's Assistant Foreign Affairs Minister Liu Jieyi, in Canberra for human rights discussions, offered the sympathies of Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao and the people of the world's most populous nation.

Countries to offer practical help include Turkey, Thailand, France and Indonesia, which has offered assistance with disaster victim identification.

Mr Rudd said Australia welcomed each of the offers of support and expressions of sympathy from around the world.

"It is good that they have come," he said.

"All Victorians and all Australians should know that in this darkest hour they are not alone."

Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany sent Australia her condolences on Tuesday over the high loss of life in the Victorian bushfires.

In a message to Mr Rudd, she said she had heard the news with deep shock and voiced her sympathy to the families of victims and the Australian people.

Geee, why did the Chinese have to emphasize the "World's most populous nation" part in their letter?

Hinting at Australia to lax their immigration laws?

I'm actually curious as to whether the Chinese deputy used those words or if they were inserted by the media.

I'm more inclined that its the media trying to sensationalize something. Seriously... a redundant additional description that may cause misunderstandings.

agreed, i think the implied meaning of

and all the world's most populous nation can do is to offer a paltry nicely worded statement ?

juxtaposed with all the examples of foreign aid and condolences, it seems like a needless barb.

interestingly enough, china is phrased in only after iran sends its "wishes of solidarity".

is it a barb aimed at Kevin rudd ? i.e, so much for being a sino-phile and good relations with china, isnt exactly doing a fat lot of good isnt it ? the allies and ones offering assistance arent exactly chinese.

anyone knows if any singaporean affected ?

seems to have hit melbourne suburbs




http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7880332.stm

seems like arsonists creating alot of trouble. seems more useful if we sent forsenic experts than firemen or RSAF choppers. the aussies seem to have the thing under control for most part.

During Flying Eagle, the situation became under control when external agencies came in fast. The agencies and authorities did not dispense with the use of helicopters then. There are many things helicopters could do under such circumstances which wheeled vehicles could not. One of which is that they aid in the quick transfer of expert manpower and needed supplies over terrain which arguably, could have become impassable due to the carnage. No doubt, the Australians can leverage on thier own resources but the area in question is vast.

At any rate, this is also a moot point since Singapore has "officially" offered the usage of our helicopters and perhaps more if such assistance is required.

this is a fundamentally different context from meluaboh aceh. meluaboh was characterized by the complete lack of access and only air access by helicopters (until the RSN divers and combat engineers managed to build a landing ramp for the LSTs and the road connecting to other parts of aceh was found serviceable) was the only access avaliable.

OTOH, australia has a well developed road network, and if you observe the maps, its clearly in a relatively accessible area. somewhere in Melbourne's suburbs. Helicopters are definitely going to help. but to make a comparison to operation flying eagle is going abit over the top ? different ground, different context. in this case, there are probably more than one route of access, by land and by air. It is not like OFE where helicopters are the most prized assets in the area, simply because they are the only ones who can move things in and out.

and the thing about the fire is that if you were to draw a circle around the major firespots. its mainly within a tight ring around kinglake. most of the small bushfires have been put out or stopped. more or less contained. should burn itself out if not be brought under control soon.

I mentioned forsenic people because another BBC article implied that operations have moved from fighting fires to recovery phase. France is sending a team of forsenic specialists there to help identify bodies.

Yes.Yes. The terrain and tragedy is different in Meluboh as compared to Australia. However, helicopters were still utilized even when the situation became better; i.e when roads are opened up. They are simply quicker and in some cases, they carry heavier loads. As such, it is hardly over the top. And you are not getting the point.

I would be appalled if you would want to negotiate through road networks, which could already be heavily utilized by other rescue vehicles when you can use helicopters and simply fly over the mess. Not to mention the fact that any help given would be free since Singapore will pay for the usage. If the Australians need those helicopters, they would tell us. Meanwhile, the offer is on the table.

I would not discount the fires restarting again or burn anew.

i do. i just dont think its appropriate to compare it to OFE. different circumstances. Helicopters are useful. just that they may be a disproportionate response to the situation.

IDN only had like what ? 2 super Pumas operating in Aceh ? and local medical and emergency services were completly non-existent (i.e totally destroyed). not exactly the same in this context.

and its not like if the aussies are short of any helicopters civillian or military. they have plenty of choppers.

plus, a logistical nightmare to get the Super Pumas to Melbourne. at least a good 1k Km away from Oakey air base, queensland where they are based. probably several refuels and the need to bring and shift ground support crews and equipment 1k km forward to melbourne.

that being said and done, offering the super pumas was a nice thing to do. i just feel it might be a little overdone to compare it with OFE. completely off the mark. one is a regional humanitarian exercise, the other is providing support in a local emergency (its still contained within victoria state). scale is somewhat different.

usually big fires are stopped not by dousing them out but rather by using firebreaks and denying fires fuel to continue burning. they are unlikely to burn on the same spot again simply because there is nothing left to burn.

i think it was nice to have offered the use of the SPs, but I think that they will be more utilised for their transport capabilities more than their firefighting ability...also I've seen pictures where fires have burned right past roads so land transport would be a difficulty alright...

I am happy to note that you recognize that helicopters are useful and therefore beneficial(i.e better than land vehicles in many stuations) since that what was i was talking about in the first place; i.e they were using helicopters in Aceh after the situation stabilized and roads were opened. Singapore had sent Super Pumas and Chinooks then.

This is really a moot point. Singapore would not have offered it if it was not within thier ability to cope with the situation. SAF do not simply deploy with zero knowledge of the topography and situation. It is perfectly fine if you think that it cannot be done or that, in your own words, it would be a logistical nightmare. Im sure the SAF would know better. Personally, I am proud that they are willing and able to do something about it; at the pleasure of the Australian government of course.

Perhaps. Or perhaps not. Have you been there? There seems to be plenty of places left to burn too as they are relatively untouched. In fact, worries are cropping about new arson acts. Afterall, the chief reason why such a large conflagration is happening is the hot weather. That and more fire fears right here;
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp.../408278/1/.html

Thought so too. There are a couple of roads where burnt vehicles are simply left on roads. You might need to bulldoze your way through;especially in outlying areas.

for those of us who went to Wallaby/Wallaroo during the hot months, you may have the pleasure of watching a patch of open land (grass and scrubland) ignite spontaneously. you cannot even see the fire itself under the bright sun, only the suddenly blackening grass and vegetation. most Singaporeans will not have this first hand experience of suddenly finding yourself in the middle of a fire and possibly with no escape.

yeap. but within the first month, when the road was reopened and access was restored, RSAF pulled back our choppers. we left only 1 chinook for the whole of aceh in late janurary ~ march i think. correct me if im wrong. look at the numbers here. they still tell a pretty different story.

point is, yes. choppers good. extremely useful in the case of disaster relief. but the conditions under OFE and the current australian drought are different. scale for instance is smaller. localized. contained.

relief forces being activated are larger, more capable and have existing infastructure (healthcare & fire crew & police). why look at an issue through such a narrow lens ? having an additional 12 super pumas is not going to exactly fight fires on the ground. Its going to help in relief efforts but its not treating the root cause of the problem.

i raised the range and distance as it still is possible to deploy the super pumas over such a distance. but many forget that this is australia we are talking about. its a continent and not something like a short distance hop from sembawang air base to the eurocopter plant at changi. its transversing a massive distance. its a complex thing to attempt this without any support platforms to refuel and provide ground zero information. its fallacy to think it can happen by just snapping fingers and saying go or like getting from point A to point B on a highway. its going to be extremely complicated process. quite different from deploying to meluaboh. worth a thought about.

sometimes i think we need to clearly distinguish between a nice, genuinely do-able diplomatic overture and a hard nosed practical likelihood of that occuring. requisitioning civil aviation assets in NSW and Victoria states would be pragmatic and more efficient (time and resource wise) than asking the RSAF to fly 12 super pumas 1000km down south. Im proud too, that RSAF can do it. Im just questioning the practicality of doing so and whether is it really necessary.

a practical offer of goodwill is one thing. whether Australia decides it needs those helicopters and how can they be deployed is another. which is why i kept hammering that this isnt OFE part 2. the aussies have plenty of resources at hand. more would be good but they arent in the same position like indonesia where any chopper assistance or any form of assistance was desperately needed.

plus, lets not forget australian domestic politics, AFAIK, its pretty messy with federal government being concerned with defence and foreign policy, but state and local governments wielding the power to make their own legislation and run things their way.

i distinctly recalled the point in question being current major large firespots burning. once these areas are contained , the overall situation should be much more manageable. arsonists are incalculable variables. if we factor that in, all of australia would be at risk of burning up.

Ive been to NSW and victoria but closer to the seaside suburbs, pray tell though, why shift the focus to me ?

Im not here to quibble with you over every detail. i think ive made my point clear here.

So, what is really the issue ? All I is see is a wall of text where you try to go around the idea of not having helicopters deployed but you just can`t do that. Aceh had her roads largely restored and helicopters were still extensively used then, as you say(didnt bother to check), for a month.

Also, I think you missed the important part that the Indons wanted us out; foreign forces first and then Asean`s.

The area is as large or even larger than Aceh. And "thousands" of firemen are still fighting conflagrations all over the place. Would helicopters be useful here? Of course.

No no no.  You forget that you are not privy to the deployment plans. Far from it in fact. As a matter of fact, you cannot seem to fathom that a government like Singapore, unlike Malaysia for instance, simply do not make empty promises or change thier minds at a whim. If we can do it, we would do it. It is as simple as that. Distance and location are ancillary issues here. Is it within our means to do it well? Obviously. We would not have made the offer then. You`d think we would risk helicopter pilots while attempting to help and rescue Australians? Pretty funny isn`t it. And somewhat infantile. Now I know it might be a casual hobby for a certain neighbour to dabble with international embarassment. Teh tarik anyone? But Singapore? It is just not "on". It is not "cool".

It seems the SAF does not share your grieviences. And who would know better anyhow? You? I think you need to realise that the SAF`s resources are finite; especially in Australia. Our recommendations are based on what is needed best and required. It is not just a doa-able diplomatic overture but it is just as practical. Helicopters are useful and it would help the situation. If the Aussies need them, they would tell us and we will fly over.

I never claimed that this is OFE part2. You, however, kept looking at the operation per se and claim that it is the case. I merely said that helicopters were still used when roads were opened then because they are really useful and certainly better than land vehicles in many ways. Undeniably, you would have to agree and you did.

Do you know how many Australian assets have been deployed thus far? You seem to forget that they have other priorities as well. And what on earth is wrong with getting additional assistance if it is offered by a close friend and free to boot? They have helped us before. We are not forcing it down thier throats. We made an offer of assistance which, as agreed, would be helpful. *shakes head*

Now you are fudging the issue. Last I recall, they are now looking at all the offers of help; seeing how best they can integrate external assistance into thier game plan.

As Ive mentioned in this post and as mentioned by a few others in this thread, fires can start spontaneously and there are still a lot more places which can burn. Many more are still raging. It is the weather.

It is entirely regrettable to think that you are quibbling over an issue which you hardly have full knowledge when our local boys are preparing for an important deployment. For shame. :angry:

at last something interesting, pray tell.

Vice President Yusuf Kalla made an abrupt annoucement that foreign forces should get out of Indonesia after a certain date or at a certain date. A couple of days later Najib Tun Razak said that Asean forces can stay up to a month more. They ended the massive largely foreign military-driven aid deployment. It is understandable.

Ok. You can try this; it has been awhile;

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2...tent_408309.htm

You probably could find more if you google for it.

does it seem in any way that i am disparaging our efforts and the chopper pilots out there ? is pointing out the difficulties in shifting 12 super pumas for 1000 km a criminal offence ? you dont need to be an Einstein to point out potential problems with such an operation. pointing out the difficulties makes me a "pariah non-rah rah singaporean ?". pointing out the difficulty in doing something isnt exactly the same as saying it cannot be done, quite substantial difference.

lets just say, the Ch47 operation to new orleans in the aftermath of hurricane katrina spanned only 400~500km. it marks the longest operational distance of RSAF helicopter assets in humanitarian operations overland. if executed, the NSW / victoria operations would be the largest ever . and this is double the operating distance of the previous furthest distance. with a different platform with significantly shorter range. go figure.

certainly, im not privy to such an operation and its specific details. but anyone with an appreciation for aussie civil aviation would be familiar with the quantity of civillian choppers in NSW and victoria alone. need i elaborate more ? or must i make the implication clear ? that we are supplementing an existing capacity. not providing something that was non-existent (like in OFE)

and the problem with news reports and relying exclusively on them, is you tend to get abit winded up by media sensationalism.

fact 1) the areas with worst bushfires are concentrated in two states. NSW and Victoria.

Fact 2) why havent there been more reports about bushfires in both states ? as mentioned, mostly under control. in fact, if you observe more balanced reporting, you'd get the idea that the bushfires are more or less tamed. I.E our presence isnt really necessary, useful and essential yes. critical, unlikely. but hey ? what do i know ?

fact 3) australia is not going to burn up or for that matter spontaneously combust across the entire country. take for instance, why is queensland flooded and the southern bits like melbourne and victoria state suffering from bushfires ? If you've lived there for abit, you'd be familiar with the weather there. NSW and victoria tends to be hotter than the average australian state in the southern hemisphere summer season. it just so happens that they tend to be more prone to bushfires than other states. and this year was a particularly bad year.

kindly be familiar with the context before jumping to the conclusion that the whole of oz is burning and that we and our 12 super pumas are going to save everyone.
:rolleyes:

CNA is rubbish. do try to get information from the source or potentially more reliable pieces. especially if the source is some AFP article. usually over-sensationalized.

http://www.fire.uni-freiburg.de/GFMCnew/20...20080211_au.htm (tiny summary of entire bushfire tragedy)
http://www.abc.net.au/news/events/bushfires/(theres a nice pic of a m113 from the ADF chipping in by providing comms support)
http://www.cfa.vic.gov.au/incidents/incident_summary.htm (fire locations and sit reps)
http://mapvisage.appspot.com/fires/FireMap.html (map that shows latest fire)

judging from the context, i'd say the aussies probably have the situation well handled and under control. dont see where could our super pumas come into any aspect of the picture. but then again, i might be wrong. what do i know ?

its always nice to disagree. it basically means u and i have two different ideas and at the end of it, we are better off with an exchange of ideas and everybody gains. but it stops being nice when it ceases to be civil discussion and name-calling, insults and it basically degenerates into a brawl. think i'd leave it at here for now. ive said my piece. what you want to make out of it is utterly beyond my control.

peace B)

Now you are starting to nit-pick your way out of this mess you have got yourself into. Let`s not forget your original contention; that the SAF is better off not deploying the helicopters.

You do not need to be Einstein to know that without sufficient knowledge of operational plans that this is nothing more than speculation. It does not take to be an Einstein to not know that this is nothing more than a sweeping statement. Nothing more and nothing less. That the SAF has offered its services so readily just goes to show how deployable the operation is from the word "go". How difficult it is or not is on a need to know basis. So, tell me in detail how difficult it is? Can you? Or are you just going to pick up on some general ideas or themes which might sound logical but not quite the truth since you would not know in detail and factually how they are going to do it. Simple words; " I dont know," would suffice.

So how is thier deployment like? How many at the periphery of thier borders assigned to other duties? And how many actually deployed? It is undeniable that more helicopters help since afterall, they will be useful. You have said that yourself. As such, there is nothing wrong with supplementing an existing capability. Hence, the offer from the SAF.

Oh, I did not say the whole of OZ is on fire. Neither did I make any contention about saving everyone. It is entirely inappropriate to misquote, intentionally or otherwise to save your argument.

Let`s harp on the word 'contained'. They are contained because of on-going efforts to control them involving thousands of firemen and hundreds of equipment. The weather could easily spread the conflagration. Further, there is no telling that more fires would spontaneously break out. The map you have so kindly furnished indicates the vast area affected by the weather. Still, why should not the SAF deploy the helicopters then? They can assist in a variety of ways.

This is petty. You cannot support your contention that sending Super Pumas would not be helpful and now start pointing fingers around and say people are resorting to name-calling.

I think the SAF and Singapore in general has a no-nonsense reputation. whether or not the aussies will take us up on our offer, the fact that we have put the offer on the table already shows how prepared the units are.

in fact I would love to know whether the fact that the Chinooks have not been offered is it due to: (1) infeasibility eg due to distance to deploy (2) not needed or (3) not quite ready for such a deployment.

I think #1 would be the most realistic reason. Ease of deployment at a moment's notice, without any need to prep those from SG and transport them over..

sigh it would be so heartwarming to see a squadron of chinooks all the way from the little red dot coming to help. like the calvary you know :rolleyes:

after all they have been tremendously generous with all the training space we have been getting.

We already did that, back during hurricane katrina.

well!!! let's do it again :P)

i know only as much as i do not know.

when some things are as plain as daylight for all to see, like for instance, the clear lack of precedents from what is inferred from publicly avaliable data / mindef released information, am i making a sweeping statement in that ?

go read some maps, check up the statistical data if you want. my points are clear and lucid. why dont you substantiate why it should be a simple problem free process to shift 12 super pumas, their support and ground crew about ? im keen to know how too.

and i do believe the point of contention here is :

in response to

i could go on and on with you about what fires are contained but that would be really a matter of semantics. the first one is to show the dry areas. several links show the contained fire areas and more recent "safe" areas. if you were to compare that with the BBC infographics picture posted earlier. its pretty clear how much of the problems is contained. and if you read , monday saw showers which helped to put out most of the fires.

seems to be a case of misrepresentation or deluded perceptions ? i dont drop words like infantile , make sarcastic overtones or utilize words like petty. :blink:

and you are raising an issue of contention over this ? a casual observation ?

if it makes you happy ild take that back. cant see why not though. could you explain how so it would be a simple thing ? :rolleyes:

I think after OFE, the SAF has demonstrated its ability to GO when ordered to. Getting the Chinooks to fly all the way to Aus is not impossible.

actually if you read the OFE book, the SAF was practically ready to GO even BEFORE being ordered to :lol: