Saw this in the IDF thread of MP.net

Merk 4 is pretty heavy, it should be around 65 tons, if my memory serves me right. Our tactical bridges are rated at MLC60, thus will be an obstacle...

surprise....difficult to believe man....they were rather sensitive with this mbt's technology

Bo pian.
They need $$$$.

They can also install a degrade version of the subsystems like what the US usually does for their export versions.

no good leh, then we cannot show case during NDP. however PAFF would be so adroit at handling this news, since the boss there has super stealth technology (waiting for CJ to come and hi-five me ;o)

I am not surprise that many road bridges in the region cannot handle this weight as well.

Must say Merk 4 is a "bloody" nice MBT. I don't think this would make into SAF's ORBAT plan.

Whilst IMI might not be able to make many Merk4 sales, I think it will be a fair call to say that the components of Merk 4 might be made available for upgrade for other platforms and perhaps the hush hush rumored MBT :)

Isn't the MK III and Mk IV variants are of the same MLC 65 ???

they dont have problem with money. they can sell other weapon system.....

actually imo, is not just about the electronic stuff but also about the type or armour used, selling it to others is like giving away the secret. unless they have 2 seperate merkava 4. 1st one used by the israeli the other one for sale with the weaker armour. To the Israelis the Merkava is not about a main battle, it's more than that....it's about confidence of being impenetrable....a destroyed Merkava will shattered that.

Mk3 is abt 60 tons and Mk4 is 65tons

If that's the case MK3 will suit us better. B)

But with all the Leopard Evos coming online gradually, i think there is little urgency to buy more MBTs. I wonder if we can get friendship prices. :D

Hmmmm, dreaming of Merkava Lite.. :rolleyes:

As much as I love the Merkava series (infantry/stretcher compartment + MBT sounds awesome to me), I am not keen on us getting them. To associate ourselves with such a distinctive symbol of Israeli military might will bring much ill will among our neighbours.

The rumour we heard is that Merk3s were already acquired even before the ex German Leo2A4... then again, this remains a rumour just like the Tempest. Officially, they don't exist in SAF ORBAT.

Seriously, like the Tempest, any replacement for Tempest will be used only in a shock and awe situation, so I think we wont see any of them rolling on Singapore roads anytime soon.

Well, there are already Israeli-made weapon systems & platforms in our armed forces, so there's nothing new about it.. Such anti-Israeli/Jewish emotions runs deep mainly among the ethnic Malays North & South of us, particularly the Muslims (don't forget there are a few in SG who hold the same views).. Since they can't be as inclusive as possible in terms of extending friendship & understanding with the various people of the world, that's their problem & they are doing it at their own loss.. Islam teaches its followers to respect & love one another, even the Jews.. They have to wake up their idea..

I'm fully aware of the Israeli weapons/platforms. The Merkava, however, is a totally different beast altogether. It's the quintessential example of Israeli military might. There was a reason for Hezbollah's focus on knocking out Israeli armour in 2006.

And more importantly, would the Merkava offer us anything beyond the capabilities offered by the L2? If not, it would seem unnecessarily antagonistic towards our neighbours.

That said, I hope the rumored Merk 3s, if they do exist, stay secret. That the need for their unveiling never crops up.

IDF probably has a Merkava Mk V prototype running around, could even be in limited mass production now.

Indonesia also acquired some Israeli military hardwares, so is just the north

Yup, I know that.. I was referring to some of their people's opinion..

Think you need to seperate as to whether Govt to Govt would be affected or it would just be certain people upset over the purchase of Israeli equipment, the G to G aspect would be more important as at the end that's the determinent, you'll get members of the populace and certain elements of the media probably making an issue of it but it'll come to naught, take the recent furor over Israeli owned ships entering Pt. Klang, people make noise but end of the day no change made to the policy. So if SG were to purchase Merkava, some ppl in country would make noise but G to G would continue as usual without any effect particularly given ASEAN's doctrine of non-interference. The govt of Malaysia tends to be more pragmatic than the populace on these things, back in 03 there were calls to cut military activities with the US due to Iraq but end of day everything went on as normal (if fact things were even more stepped up) and even the furore over Najib's speech at Heritage Foundation over the extent of US-Malaysia military ties did nothing to it. At end of day, these people can whine all they want but they won't change a thing.

just curious Dzirhan, i dont mean to offend or play up talk about race or anything, but wont any hypothetical purchase by SG and/or Malaysia actually further bolster the position of Malay rights/Ketuantuan melayu factions in both UMNO and the PAS (ultras) ? this could effectively undermine UMNO's public perception as the defender of muslim rights and further weaken its diminished credibility. a purchase of Merkava IVs by a singapore with little land area or operational deployment needs to use, would likely ignite the regional arms race and cause further suspicions of singapore's intent (escalated securitiy dilemma)

Bigger broader long term problems may result from that ? for instance, political succession and uncertainty over who really has the reins of power (there is going to be a byelection in PJ soon right ? PAS appears confident its candidate will win) will such political developments make it difficult for defence policy and more importantly in Malaysia's case, urgent procurement of helicopters and a MPSS ? at other level, if BN really gets weakened, its political focus will turn inward towards strengthening and shoring up voter bases for its political survival. Singapore bashing and verbal sabre-rattling by various political figures could become cheap tactics to gain votes. this could hurt closer relations that have been built on successively by the Badawi and Najib administrations (Leader's retreat, things like the recent tanjong pagar railway agreement) and place increasingly close defense relations on the chiller (frequent bilateral exercise like semangat bersatu, recently initiated ADMM, reciprocal visits to arms shows hosted by both sides)

not only would a purchase of equipment from israel, in particular merkava IV tanks, lead to increased tensions in the regional arms race, it could possibly damage what good closer bilateral defense relations have achieved in the past 12 years or so since, ex punkul habis.

my intent is not to challenge or question your perspective that its unlikely to have any major effect on Malaysia-Singapore relations, but coming from a singaporean perspective, i think this is our single most important bilateral relationship, something that we cannot afford to mess up or make policy missteps in. I dont quite understand your expressed view that it will basically lead to more vocal expressions with little to change in the status quo, in lieu of BN's apparent weakness, mind explaining it in greater detail ? sorry for the trouble caused.

My view is that whatever it is the govt of Malaysia will continue to be pragmatic in it's approach despite what's on the street, economic prosperity is always the key, as it benefits the politicians in various ways, sabre rattling or degrading relations damages that so there's no way the govt will go that route, keep in mind that this is a very different Malaysia than the one in the 80's under you know who :D and even he knew his limits as you can see in relation to Iraq in 2003 where business as usual with the US despite all the protests and his statements etc. The old tactics won't work as well as going ultra-national by ruling party in this day of constant media coverage and the internet will hurt the economy. Just an example was that during Pedra Branca, business between MAF and SAF went on as normal especially with bilateral visits etc.

The other thing is that the ultra-nationals draw support from the issue of loss of Malay rights/privilages rather than defence/military issues. Last year the issue of Singapore taking part in LIMA went nowhere and a protest by PAS over a US LPD making a port call in Penang had a grand total of less than 40 people present.

The plain fact is that the positions of ultra nationals hinges upon economic benefits and privilages rather than how outgunned Malaysia is or the fact that the neighbours are getting weapons from Israel or any other source and keep in mind that some of these people talk only because this is their route to political office and they are free to speak as such since they don't currently hold any major position in policy or decisionmaking by the Malaysian govt, once they get into high office their position is very different, in their younger days when they were minor pols, Najib and Anwar gave fiery pro-Malay speeches but now that they are where they are, you don't see any of that anymore :D. There's a big difference in what you see in the media particularly on the rhetoric by ultra-nationalists and what actually gets done by the Malaysian government.

Also the average public here on the whole cares very little about what Singapore purchases for it's armed forces (not to mention really about defence of Malaysia save for the cost of military equipment), it's only a few writers and frankly to be honest they really don't have too much effect, in fact if NST Singapore hadn't translated and published the Azmi Hassan article, it would have slipped under the radar here. Frankly IMO if Singapore buys Merkavas, it won't have any effect whatsover and anyone trying to make it an issue will have very little to stand on.

I presume the 2nd para includes SG (which makes it likely the cause of the merk rumours).

http://defensenews.com/blogs/eurosatory/20...ls-merkava-mk4/

By ANDREW CHUTER – The Merkava Mk4 main battle tank finally took a bow on the international stage this week as Israel used Eurosatory to launch a marketing effort to interest potential buyers in the iconic weapon.

An earlier version of the tank has been shown overseas, but this is the first time the Mk4, equipped with top technology items like the Trophy active protection system, has been on view in outside Israel, according to Brig. Gen. Yaron Livnat, the tank program manager at Israel’s Ministry of Defence.

The armored giant dominated a large Israeli presence here, which included a number of the systems suppliers on Merkava.

Previously, Israel’s policy has been to sell battle-proven systems to upgrade other manufacturer’s tanks rather than sell the Merkava itself. That’s now changed as the Israelis move to protect their industrial capabilities base in the sector by moving into the export market for the platform itself.

Merkava Mk4s continue to roll off the MoD production in Israel but Livnat acknowledges that with local requirements limited by budgets rather than operational needs, the industry would benefit from the work and revenue an export drive could bring.

Livnat said the export version of the Merkava would be available with a systems suite customized to meet particular needs as well as meet Israeli sensitivities to technology transfer.

I tot this 2003 article was also interesting which includes costs

Israel’s Merkava Tank: The Tank a Jewish Mother Would Love

http://www.gamla.org.il/english/article/2003/dec/win3.htm

Can we for once skip the misleading military jargon about why the Merkava Tank can be replaced by a future FCS (The U.S. Army’s Future Combat System)? The simple fact is that this is an exact replay of the scheme of Caspar Weinberger which successfully eliminated Israel’s Lavi aircraft. The Lavi was a superb Israeli creation of a needed operation ground support and air superiority fighter aircraft. These are the types of wars wherein Israel has always needed specialized equipment to defend herself against Arab/Muslim massed assaults. Israel has always faced Arab nations who can pour in high numbers of troops, accepting vast casualties and still have more fresh reserves to relieve their battalions. (1,2,3)

Once Weinberger and his Jewish consultant, Dov Zakheim (4) saw the successful performance record of the Lavi, he began pressuring Israel to cancel the Lavi for a wing of F16s made by General Dynamics. Not only did Weinberger want additional sales for the F16 but, he did NOT want a superior, yet cheaper aircraft in the marketplace competing with U.S. products. Weinberger tasked Dov Zakheim, supposedly an Orthodox Jew to undermine and subvert Israel’s self-confidence to continue from successful prototypes to co-production of the Lavi - and by the way, various projects for the Israeli Navy that were on stream. (5)

The F16s airframe dated back to the ‘60s and was NOT designed for close ground support. Although Israel needed a Ground Support aircraft for the type of wars she has always had to fight, the pressure to buy the F16 (which was rather clumsy at low altitudes) forced Israel to eat the change and deep-six the Lavi. Clearly, the Lavi was a far superior aircraft in terms of combining both close ground support and air superiority, with outstanding Israeli electronics and avionics. To this day neither the U.S. or the Europeans have been able to design one aircraft that can competently do both jobs. (7)

The Lavi would have cost $17 Million, as opposed to at least twice that for any current fighting jet from any country, inclusive of spare parts. The Lavi was lighter than the F16, 10% faster ‘on the deck’, had a smaller radar cross section and could carry a heavy load of armaments. It was also designated as a hot trainer that became combat operational at the flip of a switch. America could have used a U.S. Lavi as a complement to its air-stack of F15s and F16s. Having been briefed about the superior capabilities of the Lavi and the fact that its development would create hundreds of American jobs, the American Congress had voted the needed appropriations. Almost immediately after that Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin twisted his Cabinet into voting 12 to 11 to kill the Lavi project, virtually compromising Israel’s strategic relationship with the American Congress as well as destroying thousands of man-hours of strenuous R&D and torpedoing hundreds of jobs of high level Israelis.

Now the Merkava, like the Lavi, is to be eliminated probably because Boeing needs a customer for a grouping of light-weight vehicles which, collectively, are supposed to equal the Merkava. Although the U.S. does need armor like the lightweight ‘Stryker’ that can be easily transported via air, Israel does NOT have that requirement. All of Israel’s enemies can bring troops and equipment to her nearby borders. The 70 ton Merkava Battle Tank was designed specifically to face this threat.

Of course, the M1A2 Abrams Tank (now America’s Main Battle Tank) will be part of the package at twice the price of what a Merkava costs. The Merkava was designed in the 1970s for desert warfare, the rocky terrain of the Golan Heights and with its primary goal, to protect its crew. The Abrams still has major problems with sand sucked up by its engine, too few tank miles between maintenance for suspension, tracks, engine, firing systems, etc. The Abrams was primarily designed for battle in the European theater and NOT the sands of the Middle East.

The Merkava has seen action in every military campaign of the last 20 years and is the combat weapon of choice for IDF commanders confronting organized Terrorist resistance in the PLO-controlled territories. No other system affords soldiers better protection from small-arms attack, roadside bombs and shoulder-fired missiles. Strangely, the U.S. would have had a better tank to fight with (especially in the desert) while securing better protection for its crews had it adopted the Merkava but, the NIH (Not Invented Here) factor dominated. Merkava 5 is the latest version which incorporates battle-tested systems making it the most advanced tank in the world.

Some of the Merkava’s many innovations are improved reactive armor (that absorbs the kinetic energy of an incoming shell, explodes it before it can penetrate the tank and hurt the crew). The Merkava also has a 120mm. smooth-bore gun capable of firing guided munitions, an enhanced gun stabilization system, state-of-the-art night-fighting and fire-control sensors, a positive pressure crew compartment that allows the vehicle to fight in a biological or chemical environment, and even air conditioning. The Merkava is also designed for rear entry, enabling it to double as an infantry transporter.(2) But, if certain U.S. business interests prevail, it will never be produced.

What hasn’t been published (yet) were results of the Joint Operations (Military Games) where American forces with M1A1s faced off against Israelis in their Merkavas. The results were so one-sided and embarrassing that they were never discussed in military journals. Maj. Gen. Israel Tal, the developer of the Merkava, instructed all involved Israeli personnel to remain silent on these exercises. (It happened more than once.)

Currently, Israel fields 3,900 armored vehicles. This is less than 50% of those fielded by Israel’s enemies who continue to build up their armor arsenal, among them Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Egypt. These countries have field over 8,700 tanks among them. Egypt’s force is the most menacing. Over the last dozen years Egypt’s President Hosni Mubarak has undertaken a massive upgrade of Egypt’s tank fleet, acquiring more than 880 M1A1 tanks. These vehicles are provided to Egypt as ‘kits’ and assembled in a billion-dollar plant (2) built by "guess who" Caspar Weinberger just outside Cairo. (8)

Weinberger exceeded his authority as Sec. of Defense to build this plant without securing an approved budget from Congress. Weinberger’s original intention was to have Egypt build its own M1A1 Tank out of sight of Congressional overview. Egypt would not only supply tanks for its own use but, then to use excess production to become the supplier of other Arab nations as a side benefit. But, Egypt was not capable of manufacturing the Tank which is why finished components were sent as kits and only ‘assembled’ in Egypt with U.S. technical overview.

Recently, the U.S. government has given the go-ahead for the upgrading of some Egyptian tanks to the more potent M1A2 configuration. With no country threatening its borders, only Israel appears to be the likely target of the Egyptian build-up.

On top of that, Washington approved the sale of new, more lethal 120 mm. Armor-piercing rounds to Egypt for its M1 tanks. This is a deal worth $54 million, is for 10,040 non-standard APFSDS-T shells.(2) The Pentagon and State Department have a standard line for these sales: "It will not alter the military balance in the region" - although, of course, it always does.

Egypt has made no secret of its aim to achieve military parity with the Jewish State and to have a regional military projection capability. Cairo has acquired new and more powerful weapons’ systems, including surface-to-surface missiles with from China and North Korea, WMD capability, fighter aircraft, attack helicopters, naval vessels and, of course, tanks.(2)

Some may recall during the prior Administration while Secretary of Defense William Cohen was observing Operation "Bright Star" (Joint Military Games between U.S. and Egyptian troops) a high ranking Egyptian General said: "We are preparing for war with Israel".

Dr. Yuval Steinitz, Chairman of Israel’s Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee of the Knesset made this point: "Israel has no strategic depth." (6) (Israel is 50 miles wide at its maximum and only 9 miles where President Bush insists another Arab Palestinian State is to be located.) He also spoke of Israel’s diminishing qualitative edge which numerous American Presidents have ‘pledged’ to maintain. That pledge has diminished along with the unkept promised ‘qualitative’ edge as ARAB NATIONS HAVE THE SAME EQUIPMENT AS IS BEING SOLD TO ISRAEL.

Israel’s Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is under severe pressure to close down more than 220 Israeli firms, contractors and sub-contractors in order to transfer Israel’s tank manufacturing jobs to Boeing and their sub-contractors. Israel would lose an estimated 5,000 to 10,000 jobs. Many of these are engineers, scientists and skilled factory workers. This would lead to an acceleration of the overseas migration of Israel’s intellectual capital and bring ruin to a key component of Israel’s research and technological base. It would also further erode Israel’s deterrent posture and another vital element of military self-sufficiency.(2)

Effects of this possible shutdown would also be felt in the U.S. where 22% of the Merkava’s content is fabricated. General Dynamics Land Systems, the largest U.S.-based Merkava contractor, is slated to produce 400 engines for the tank at a cost of just under $200 million. Cancelling that contract requires Israel to forfeit 90% of this amount in compensation.

Rumors are circulating that the U.S. has offered to provide Israel with used Abrams tanks that were withdrawn from the Iraqi theater of operations. The U.S. no longer maintains an assembly line for new M1 tanks. In the highly unlikely event the line were to be restarted, the unit cost of an M1 would probably be in excess of its original $9 million cost - which is millions more than the cost of a comparable Merkava. Relying on spare parts from an overseas supplier, even (especially) the U.S. reduces Israel’s military flexibility and control in wartime which can place great strains on an all-important strategic relationship.(2)

Regrettably, Israel will likely be short-changed into buying the M1A2 at twice the cost of the Merkava. It’s a direct replay of the killing off of the Lavi at its cost of $17 million to take on the F16 at a cost of (then) $23 to $26 million in addition to multi-millions in spare parts. Add this to the cost of re-employing all those who were then making the Merkava.

Israel has invested approximately $6.5 Billion in the Merkava. The Merkava R&D served as a test-bed for innovations in not only land combat, but air combat as well. Many of the technologies now appear in the IAF fighter jets, including some of the most advanced systems for battle management, multiple target acquisition, platform survivability, the deployment of active and passive counter-measures, command and control as well as situational management.(2)

The survival of the Merkava is integral to the maintenance of Israel’s qualitative military edge. Terminate the Merkava and the Jewish State loses an essential part of her military readiness. It takes about 40 months to field a Merkava tank from the day the first steel is cut and the first welds are drawn. The Israel Defense Ministry has sub components on order for production roll-out through 2007, new contracts must be signed now to ensure the continuity of production past 2007.

Merkava components and technologies amount to over $200 million in annual export sales by Israel. Add to this the $800 million that Israel is to receive for the upgrade of 170 Turkish M60A1 tanks and the millions more it expects for future Merkava sales. All of this would be lost if the Merkava is cancelled. Without producing the Merkava, according to Brig. Gen. (Res.) Ze’ev Bar-Gil, "Israel will lose its status as one of the leaders of the world in tank technology and will, therefore, lose projects of co-development and co-production of armored systems with other nations." (2)

Unfortunately, Israel never obtained the air superiority/close ground support aircraft she needed. The F16 was a wonderful ‘air superiority’ aircraft but, unlike the Lavi which was designed both for air superiority and as a ground support aircraft, Israel was forced by Cap Weinberger to take General Dynamics slightly altered F16.

But, as they say, "Sorry Charlie, business is business."

Dzirhan, for myself, there is a certain sensitivity towards the views of our neighbours. I guess that I believe that we should attempt to avoid offering ourselves up as potential political capital for neighbouring politicians.The increased perceived Islamization (if that is the correct term) is also somewhat troubling. And there is definitely an increased sensitivity towards comments by individuals about Singapore. Note that I'm not disagreeing with you, merely explaining why I feel the way I do.

Thank you for your contribution and that enlightening bit.

I see, thank you very much for that input and insight. :D

guessed i may read too much into the creeping islamicization of malaysia, ketuanan melayu complex and BN/UMNO political survival nexus, when they dont really play off each other.

Israeli Government write up on the Merkava Mk 4 at Eurosatory

http://www.eurosatory.mod.gov.il/merkava.htm

The Merkava Mk. 4 Tank is the forth generation of the Israeli Merkava tanks. Based on combat experience, it represents cutting-edge tank technologies in , mobility and fire-power.

The Merkava Mk. 4 took part in actual combat and lived up to IDF's expectations

Basic description:

Survivability and Protection: Equipped with the active-protection hard-kill system, "Trophy", the Mk. 4 provides the best protection level ever. Other survivability features: all-round ballistic protection, including roof protection, provided by modular Special Armor, tank systems weight is utilized to enhance crew protection (e.g.: the location of the power-pack in the front), and a state of the art Laser Warning System.

Mobility: The Mk. 4 is equipped with a state of the art diesel-based power-pack. It also features a robust hydro-mechanical suspension. The automotive system enables the tank to negotiate rough terrain while maintaining crew comfort thus sustaining a high level of crew readiness.

Fire- Power: The upgraded 120mm main gun is capable of firing high power ammunition as well as multi-mode rounds that are set in chamber. The advanced Fire-Control System is capable of tracking, locking and hitting moving targets, like tanks and helicopters, using the standard tank ammunition.

Other systems incorporated into Merkava Mk. 4 include:

- Advanced thermal imaging and TV systems.
- All-electrical turret and gun control system.
- Independent panoramic stabilized commander sight, equipped with thermal and TV channels.
- An integrated C4I system, available to all crewmembers.
- Rearward looking camera.
- An upgraded internal mortar with increased firing range.
- Auxiliary Power Unit (APT)
- Over the last forty years, the Merkava program has promoted considerable expansion of Israel's industrial and technological potential.

Improved technologies related to tank manufacturing include welding and machining of large armor bodies, casting of ballistic steels, production of guns, state of the art electro-optical systems, and protection and armor technologies, including the recent active protection "Trophy".

The Merkava technologies were applied throughout the years in many other combat vehicles worldwide, new and upgraded alike.

théâtre du merkava!




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AplaSGHn0vM...player_embedded

Thanks for the clip! I finally saw how the internal mortar is being fired! Been wondering how they do that.

Its good to note that the APS (Active Protection System) used in the presentation can destroy helicopter launched anti-tank missiles.

The BMS mentioned in the clip could have been similar or identical to what we have in SAF.

Am I the only one the pays more attention to the 4 babes on the right more than the merkava?

I don't think you're reading too much.

Just that at the moment, politics in Malaysia is still politics. They say whatever they need to get the votes, and then work quietly but rationally in G2G relations. Politicians want power and want to stay in power. IMO, the interesting thing about democracies is that the politicians would often be too busy jockeying for positions against the other parties that they seldom really consider foreign powers to be a greater threat to their regime than the opposition parties. I suspect that the more "challenge" there is from opposition parties, the less likely the ruling regimes would get away by diverting attention to external "threats." I've got a few plausible explanations but that would be going way OT.

Hence, if there is a good period to consider getting Israeli tanks and getting away with it, it would be during a period where they would be too busy with their political jockeying. Of course, I don't see why we'd consider the Merkava 4 after their rather lackluster performance in Lebanon '06. From what I read, of the 18 Merkava 4s that were penetrated, only 8 remained serviceable. IMO the cats are good with the armor packages. Can dream on about the M1s as their armor composite is still heavily classified.

Hi Shotgun, may i know you opinion on the armour of our Leo2A4 Evo as compared to the Merkeva Mk IV.

Perhaps a Leo2A4 upgraded with newer German technology for urban warfare will do better back in 2006 where the Hizbollah anti-tank teams fire at very close ranges.

The cats especially with their new fur coats, are already more than a match for anything else in this region. There is really no need to take up the political shine of publicly buying Merks.