| QUOTE |
| MIG29s to fly for five more years Source: The Malay Mail Tuesday, February 23rd, 2010 17:07:00 KUANTAN: The Royal Malaysian Air Force's (RMAF) MiG-29N aircraft will fly for at least another five years, Defence Minister Datuk Seri Ahmad Zahid Hamidi said. He said the government had decided to continue operating the Russian-made aircraft although there was a proposal to retire and sell them to third world countries. "The decision was based on the capability of the aircraft (MIG-29N) in executing the tasks given," he told reporters after visiting the RMAF base here today. Zahid said factors considered include the country's economy which had yet to fully recover from the economic slowdown. "We plan to buy more multi-role combat aircraft (MRCA) but the economic situation is preventing it," he said. The government also considered a suggestion by former prime minister Tun Dr Mahathir Mohamad who, in his blog, said the MIG-29N aircraft should be in service. Zahid said Aerospace Technique System Corporation Sdn Bhd (ATSC) would be asked to refurbish the aircraft by upgrading the equipments at lower costs. The government had expected to save RM260 million annually with the retirement of the MIGs on Dec 31. Meanwhile, RMAF chief Gen Datuk Seri Rodzali Daud said only ten MIG aircraft would be taking to the skies as six others had been decommissioned. |
| QUOTE (James Chong) |
| Interesting viewpoint MeesterT. There must be a very strong reason for Malaysia to want to keep up with the Lims, or should I say The Republic of Singapore and Thailand. First up, an armed force of a country needs to justify its existence. And, realistically, who are the most likely conventional enemies Malaysia will end up fighting? Her neighbours. That is of course a worst-case scenario, which most probably will not happen due to the good relations Malaysia enjoys with her Asean neighbours. But an armed force is an organisation built to plan for worst-case scenarios and such planning does not come cheap or can it be built overnight. Buying the right equipment and training the personnel to use and maintain them properly takes years, if not decades. I am sad to say that we have still not got things right so many years after independence. If we truly believe that we will NEVER end up fighting our neighbours, then we should not be spending so much trying to catch up with Singapore’s armed capability. And we if we come to the conclusion that we MUST have a decent deterrent for whatever reason, then let us have the political will to build a realistically attainable credible force, not based on fantasy or as a vehicle to line someone’s pockets. There are so many needs to be met. Currently, fast jets get the most attention not only because it is more “glamorous” but maintaining air control is obviously crucial in any conventional conflict. What amazes me is how our small air force has so many types of fighter/attack jets in its inventory. At the most, just settle on two types. I think the RMAF should place its bet on the Su-30MKM since we have already invested so much in it. Don’t dream of a 5th generation fighter for the time being. The JSF comes with too many political “strings” unless you are S’pore or Australia and a Russian JSF or F22 is still decades away. When it is time to get rid of the MiG 29, just get more Su-30s. Keep updating the F-18s for their attack role. I think we can wrangle up enough to buy another 12 to 15 Su-30s at least. And stick to just one fast jet trainer/light attack airframe – 10 will do. That will leave the government with enough to retire the tired old Nuris. And I do not think we have the luxury here of going for uber pricey things like EH101s, NH90s, Cougars or Blackhawks. Just get some updated Hueys – UH1Ns or AB212s. You just want to haul troops and stuff without all the other trimmings. I really do not think we can ever replace the lift capacity of the Nuris unless you are thinking about Mi-8s or 17s even then I do not think we can afford 30 units of the Russian chopper. At most, just 20 or so UH1Ns, AB212s, Mi-8s or 17s. Maybe we can push the figure to about 28 if we opt for the late model Hueys. And, another thing we can stop dreaming about is a high-end dedicated attack chopper like the AH-64D, Rooivalk or Tiger. Unless we are going for cheap versions like the Mi-35 or, which I think is quite good, the AH-6i Little Bird. And please do not let the army dream about getting its own air arm. The 10 LOH they got have only wasted what good money we have. For the Navy, maybe, since they have very specific roles but any function that the army needs can be done by the airforce’s helicopters. I will keep this reply to just air assets. |
| QUOTE (James Chong) |
| Interesting viewpoint MeesterT. There must be a very strong reason for Malaysia to want to keep up with the Lims, or should I say The Republic of Singapore and Thailand. First up, an armed force of a country needs to justify its existence. And, realistically, who are the most likely conventional enemies Malaysia will end up fighting? Her neighbours. That is of course a worst-case scenario, which most probably will not happen due to the good relations Malaysia enjoys with her Asean neighbours. But an armed force is an organisation built to plan for worst-case scenarios and such planning does not come cheap or can it be built overnight. Buying the right equipment and training the personnel to use and maintain them properly takes years, if not decades. I am sad to say that we have still not got things right so many years after independence. If we truly believe that we will NEVER end up fighting our neighbours, then we should not be spending so much trying to catch up with Singapore�s armed capability. |



| QUOTE (James Chong) |
| And we if we come to the conclusion that we MUST have a decent deterrent for whatever reason, then let us have the political will to build a realistically attainable credible force, not based on fantasy or as a vehicle to line someone’s pockets. |
| QUOTE (James Chong) |
| I think the RMAF should place its bet on the Su-30MKM since we have already invested so much in it. Don’t dream of a 5th generation fighter for the time being. The JSF comes with too many political “strings” unless you are S’pore or Australia and a Russian JSF or F22 is still decades away. When it is time to get rid of the MiG 29, just get more Su-30s. Keep updating the F-18s for their attack role. I think we can wrangle up enough to buy another 12 to 15 Su-30s at least. And stick to just one fast jet trainer/light attack airframe – 10 will do. |
| QUOTE (James Chong) |
| That will leave the government with enough to retire the tired old Nuris. And I do not think we have the luxury here of going for uber pricey things like EH101s, NH90s, Cougars or Blackhawks. Just get some updated Hueys – UH1Ns or AB212s. You just want to haul troops and stuff without all the other trimmings. I really do not think we can ever replace the lift capacity of the Nuris unless you are thinking about Mi-8s or 17s even then I do not think we can afford 30 units of the Russian chopper. At most, just 20 or so UH1Ns, AB212s, Mi-8s or 17s. Maybe we can push the figure to about 28 if we opt for the late model Hueys. And, another thing we can stop dreaming about is a high-end dedicated attack chopper like the AH-64D, Rooivalk or Tiger. Unless we are going for cheap versions like the Mi-35 or, which I think is quite good, the AH-6i Little Bird. And please do not let the army dream about getting its own air arm. The 10 LOH they got have only wasted what good money we have. For the Navy, maybe, since they have very specific roles but any function that the army needs can be done by the airforce’s helicopters. I will keep this reply to just air assets. |






| QUOTE (Grunt @ Jun 29 2010, 06:51 PM) |
| (iv) Interestingly, Martin Streetly in March 2010 issue of Asian Military Review claims that the RSAF purchased 6 units of the AN/ALQ-131(V) which is a 1990s vintage podded radar jammer that has capabilities as a radar warning receiver and electronics warfare control system. The Northrop Grumman/BAE Systems AN/ALQ-131(V) has a block II that has been exported to 8 countries beyond it's use in the USAF. Depending on the model, the ALQ-131 has two or three modular jamming transmitters, and two or three modular receiving transmitters, which can be selected for the most likely frequency bands on which threats are expected. However, I have my doubts about the currency of Martin Streetly's info, as USAF Vipers are currently equipped with the newer AN/ALQ-184(V) electronic warfare pods. The AN/ALQ-184(V) both contain a radar jammer, and can tow an AN/ALE-50 decoy. Version 11 AN/ALQ-184(V) added more intelligence, in both a noise generator (i.e. brute-force jamming) and deceptive transponder mode. It is programmable not to start responding to a radar until it senses a certain number of hits from the threat, so the jammer does not become a beacon. For the avoidance of doubt, there are no sources that suggest the AN/ALQ-184(V) is in service with the RSAF. I have merely mentioned it in passing to explain why I suspect that Martin Streetly's EW info on the RSAF is dated. |

| QUOTE (bdique @ Jun 30 2010, 01:31 PM) |
| I'm trying to find the aforementioned article written by Maj Goh Si Mien, where IIRC he stated that part of the reason why thunder runs were successful was because they could operate buttoned down. This involved the installation of RWS for the commander (can't recall, but I think there's one for the gunner/loader as well, sporting a GPMG instead of a M2 Browning), which not only gave them protection from air burst rounds or being shot at at close range, but also allowed them to use the smaller caliber weapons (smaller is relative to the main gun) on targets up in the buildings. (This can already be done using the pintle mounted GPMGs, but the VC will be exposed, putting him at risk.) The thing about our L2s is that whilst there is upgraded armour, I'm not sure if there is this capability to fight buttoned down, specifically being able to suppress/kill enemy AT teams hiding in buildings above. I'm aware the IDF Merk4s did roll into Gaza buttoned down, but theirs have some pretty whoop-ass top armour, which our zhng-ed L2s don't seem to have. Hence I feel that SAF isn't exactly Thunder-run ready yet, until they can address the idea of being able to fight buttoned down. Or of course they aren't telling us enough, which really isn't too surprising if that's the case. |
| QUOTE (Grunt @ Jun 30 2010, 01:55 PM) | ||
1. Sorry about broken links. Links to part 7 fixed. So you should be able to click on them to read - this would include the master page to Maj Goh Si Mien's article (go there and see relevant PDF). 2. The Thunder Run worked in part because it was unexpected and tactically the Sadam's Fedeyee were not prepared (in terms of having the right weapons) and their obstacle plan was incompetently set up. They did not even booby trap the minefield they set up (enabling silent breaching by the Americans) but they found time to shit on the mines (literally - defecate). IMO, we should not rely on EN incompetence for mission success... so replicating another Thunder Run is not so simple. 3. In fact, I think references and background research in that article is rather poor. It seems that the writer, Maj Goh Si Mien, did not consider other articles including a interesting one on urban warfare by David Kilcullen - I can't remember where the link is at the moment (discussed this in a post with Evo in relation to getting the IDF Namer or KMW Puma, for urban ops). The issue is the quality of training and education for our Officers and NCOs (it's still poor, despite the attempts to improve). Further, IMO, there is an issue with quality of the literature review in our published articles. I would suggest that Pointer will need to change our process, this would include setting up a panel, where articles need to presented and critiqued by a panel... to subject it to proper peer review. 4. Yes, I too believe that remote weapon stations and other add-ons are necessary but they are not shown as the upgrades are incomplete (and I'm not sure if Mindef wants to show all the tricks in the bag). Plus some of the technology needed is not yet mature, so we are waiting for more inserts. The platform choice is good, it can take the current upgrades and it will be able to accommodate future upgrades. |
| QUOTE (Orcishwarrior @ Jul 1 2010, 06:35 PM) |
| Just a reminder to all, Due to the sensitive nature of such a thread, Please kindly refrain from posting provocative and emotional statements. thanks best regards Gabriel :D |
| QUOTE (Shotgun @ Jun 30 2010, 10:09 PM) |
| I agree that an RWS would contribute to situation awareness in a "Thunder Run" type of "assault." But I would not attribute the success of a Thunder Run solely to that. The axis of the run and the intelligence gathering assets supporting plays a critical role. Looking out of a RWS's sight, which in some cases are slewed to the CITV, is still akin to looking out at the world through a straw. The commander or RWS operator still needs to know where the threat axis was. During the Thunder Runs of the Iraq war, Air Force jets flew overhead giving that kinda information to the lead vehicles of the column. Nevertheless, the RWS allowed to the gunners and commanders to engage threats, especially "technicals" without exposing themselves once they knew where they were coming from. Btw, there was actually quite little mention of RWS in the book on Thunder Run. http://books.google.com.sg/books?id=Cuw2g9...epage&q&f=false |
| QUOTE (FIVE-TWO @ Jul 1 2010, 11:15 PM) |
| if you have a roller coaster with cars shaped like M113, AMX-13, Leo, BX and Terrex, I guarantee all of us will go and ride every other week :lol: :lol: :lol: and of course it will be called Thunder Run |
| QUOTE (tankee1981 @ Jul 1 2010, 11:37 PM) | ||
Wow! Pretty fierce name for a roller coaster ride! :D |
| QUOTE (FIVE-TWO @ Jul 1 2010, 11:47 PM) | ||||
it will feature two coasters that run pass and along each other, while riders are given laser SAR-21 replicas to shoot at each other's coasters. winning coaster gets to ride FREE :lol: |
| QUOTE (ChineseJunk @ Jul 1 2010, 11:07 PM) | ||
Funny, nowadays when I see RWS I tend to think of something else... :lol: |
| QUOTE (Shotgun @ Jul 2 2010, 12:35 AM) | ||||
Haha, the only RWS I frequently encounter is "Range While Scan." LOL! |
| QUOTE (Grunt @ Jun 30 2010, 01:55 PM) |
| 1. Sorry about broken links. Links to part 7 fixed. So you should be able to click on them to read - this would include the master page to Maj Goh Si Mien's article (go there and see relevant PDF). 2. The Thunder Run worked in part because it was unexpected and tactically the Sadam's Fedeyee were not prepared (in terms of having the right weapons) and their obstacle plan was incompetently set up. They did not even booby trap the minefield they set up (enabling silent breaching by the Americans) but they found time to shit on the mines (literally - defecate). IMO, we should not rely on EN incompetence for mission success... so replicating another Thunder Run is not so simple. 3. In fact, I think references and background research in that article is rather poor. It seems that the writer, Maj Goh Si Mien, did not consider other articles including a interesting one on urban warfare by David Kilcullen - I can't remember where the link is at the moment (discussed this in a post with Evo in relation to getting the IDF Namer or KMW Puma, for urban ops). The issue is the quality of training and education for our Officers and NCOs (it's still poor, despite the attempts to improve). Further, IMO, there is an issue with quality of the literature review in our published articles. I would suggest that Pointer will need to change our process, this would include setting up a panel, where articles need to presented and critiqued by a panel... to subject it to proper peer review. 4. Yes, I too believe that remote weapon stations and other add-ons are necessary but they are not shown as the upgrades are incomplete (and I'm not sure if Mindef wants to show all the tricks in the bag). Plus some of the technology needed is not yet mature, so we are waiting for more inserts. The platform choice is good, it can take the current upgrades and it will be able to accommodate future upgrades. |
| QUOTE (David Kilcullen) |
| This article is about contemporary dismounted infantry tactics. It argues that the Australian Army should reconsider some aspects of its approach to manoeuvre and suppression in the close battle. The article does not argue for a particular solution. Rather, it highlights some apparent problems with our current doctrine and poses a challenge to innovate, and to debate the issues. The aim is to encourage professional debate about tactical innovation within infantry. Whether that debate takes place in the pages of this journal or within some other forum is immaterial. What is important is that we have the debate, reconsider our approach to suppression and manoeuvre in the close battle, and validate our tactics for 21st-century conditions. Operational experience is more widespread among Australian infantry than at any time since the Vietnam War, yet actual combat experience remains rare. Therefore, tactical doctrine—the way we fight, and how we teach our junior commanders—is more important than ever. If we do not constantly develop our tactical thinking, there is a real danger that we will apply inappropriate tactical methods in future conflict—with disastrous consequences. This article will first describe some experiences that have led the author to question certain aspects of our tactics. It will then briefly examine some historical and scientific evidence before issuing a challenge to reconsider the basis of our infantry tactics. ... During three years in Britain, I commanded twelve company attacks in the urban training facilities at Sennybridge in Wales and at Copehill Down on Salisbury Plain. Each attack was recorded and analysed, and tactics were changed over time in an effort to improve the company’s survival in the assault. These attacks were fought over the same terrain each time, against the same enemy, in the same scenario, with the same mission (‘capture’) and the same friendly forces. These exercises represented a significant body of experience in the urban assault. With high-fidelity simulation, it was possible to identify which friendly and enemy elements inflicted which casualties, at which point in the battle, and at what location. The results were surprising. In the early attacks, an orthodox tactical approach was employed. The attack commenced with the establishment of suppressive fire, which enabled the assault platoon to break into the village and fight forward in order to secure key objectives. The reserve was then used to clear the remainder of the village. Held by a reinforced platoon in deliberate defence, the village would eventually fall. We would, however, always suffer heavy casualties, and it would take several hours to capture the village. The problem seemed to be that of suppression. The company could establish sufficient fire superiority to ‘shoot in’ the assault platoon to the first houses but, as we attempted to manoeuvre, the assault troops would suffer casualties from depth positions that remained undetected and unsuppressed. By the time the objectives were taken, ammunition would be so low (and casualties so high) that we became extremely vulnerable to counterattack. Watching the video ‘replay’ of these attacks and dissecting them in after-action reviews, I was often surprised by the behaviour and positioning of my troops in the assault. They did not advance by sections or fire teams, clearing house by house and establishing a neat ‘forward line of own troops’. Nor did they move in a straight line. Instead, their movement resembled that of a flock of birds—small independent groups working to a common purpose but without a fixed formation. They would move to a point from which to observe and suppress the next enemy position, then to a point from which the position could be cleared, then to a point from which to observe the next position, and so on. This cycle of observe–suppress–move–clear–observe was not based on lines of advance, forward lines of own or enemy troops, or indeed on anything linear at all. Instead it was based on ‘points’—points of observation, firing points, jumping-off points for assaults. By the end of my time on the Battle Course, and through experimentation with tactics and formations, I had found a formula that worked. This formula involved employing almost three-quarters of the company in fire support, with only a small assault element comprising an overstrength section. This section was lightly equipped but carried engineering and demolition stores. A ‘reserve’ of firepower was also constituted, comprising several general-purpose machine-guns and light 51 mm mortars rather than a reserve of assault troops. The bulk of the company would suppress known enemy positions, inflicting casualties but manoeuvring only enough to achieve effective suppression. Enemy in depth would often reveal themselves by firing in support of forward positions, allowing depth positions to be targeted and destroyed. Because most of the company was in fire support, we could carry a heavier ammunition load, and hence sustain a heavy weight of fire for a long time. The assault element would be committed only after the enemy had cracked, and if possible from an unexpected direction. ... This experience gave a clear indication that something was amiss with our doctrinal tactics. ... Then reality came in the form of Australia’s deployment to East Timor in September 1999. My battalion was the first to land in Dili and deployed to the West Timor border within a few days. In the early period of INTERFET, operations on the border were primarily based on counterinsurgency rather than peace enforcement. ... In summary, my personal experience and my observation of others’ experience in both simulated and actual close combat has led to the following conclusions. First, dismounted infantry combat in the close battle is about suppression more than manoeuvre, and it is about ‘points’, not ‘lines’. Second, the orthodox arrangement of a platoon in the assault, a platoon in fire support and a platoon in reserve does work, but it is costly in time and casualties. Third, an arrangement using a much higher proportion of the force in fire support, a reserve of firepower (rather than a manoeuvre reserve) and a small assault element works better in complex terrain. Fourth, infantry in the assault do not maintain fixed, linear formations. Trying to do so only increases casualties. Instead, they move from point to point on a cycle of observe–suppress–move–clear–observe. |
| QUOTE (Shotgun @ Jul 4 2010, 04:58 PM) |
| Gee, I'm not sure if anyone of us can answer that question... From the excerpts of your article, the author seems to be emphasizing on the suppression of enemy positions. From what I've read in Pioneer, it seems we are already on top of that. Instead of suppressing, we'd destroy fixed positions with fighter/apache PGMs, coupled direct and indirect fire from vehicles. So it seems, that we're not just considering infantry operations in isolation. |
| QUOTE (Shotgun @ Jul 4 2010, 10:29 PM) |
| The time limitation is now imposed by the electronic systems that the soldiers need to fight in closed terrain or fibua. Of course, we're not talking about 20mins, but probably about 20 hrs before the power for all individual soldier's gadgets start switching off. |
| QUOTE (Grunt @ Jul 4 2010, 11:57 PM) | ||
:D Well spotted - on the twin issues of latency and battery power.
The Future Systems directorate has considered the battery life issue in their developmental road map - BG Tan Yih San, has said in 2008 that they are looking at fuel cells as the next generation technology insert with regards to portable power. Thankfully for the SAF, the technological road map for ACMS development is well considered. That's why my focus in the discussion/critique was on improving education and training. :P |
| QUOTE (Shotgun @ Jul 5 2010, 01:04 AM) | ||||
I was actually thinking of recycling excess biomechanical energy to recharge the systems. I've seen some dynamo device that is placed on the knee joint, harnessed on below the knee and lower thigh. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7226968.stm Whenever a soldier moves around (which they do in fibua a lot), the dynamo can recharge systems or batteries. Pretty useful for extending the amount of power available. I think (in good faith) there definitely more re-evaluation of current tactics and approaches that are taking place or on-going. My knowledge of Mindef and the SAF is that they are quite compartmentalized. There are specific departments that handle specific things. IF there is a department that handles re-evaluation of infantry tactics and doctrines, I think it can be reasonably judged that they do focus efforts on revising education and training of troops. |