According to this report, tha Apaches will be coming back in the first quarter of 2006!! B)

Fitting in well - the SAF's Apaches

Posted: 21 Nov 2005, 2000 hours (Time is GMT +8 hours)

Report by Gail Wan
Photos by Lum Ngia and Gail Wan
From 29 Palms, California

Exercise Forging Sabre will serve as a "good starting point" for the AH-64D Apache attack helicopters to be integrated into the Singapore Armed Forces (SAF) before they are re-deployed to Singapore in the first quarter of next year, said Peace Vanguard Detachment Commander, Lieutenant-Colonel (LTC) Christopher Wong (right).

The Peace Vanguard Detachment is located in Marana, Arizona.

"All the elements will be back home and we can integrate immediately instead of starting from scratch," LTC Wong said.

“We have been here for the last four years and all this while, we have been operating with the United States Army, doing things their way and adopting their doctrines.”

“For this particular exercise, the difference would be to integrate and operate with SAF units.”

................

http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/publicati...ov05_news3.html

WooHoo... That sounds great. Hopefully they will be appearing in 2006 National Day Parade or maybe in some army open house event. Been waiting a long time to catch a glimpse of our AH-64D Apache.


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Pictures from this exe shown 5 Longbow Apaches, it was reported that we have at least 8 Apaches that come with the Longbow radars, as for the other 12 , there was no report that we have installed the Longbow radars on them.

Did we have them installed????

http://www.mindef.gov.sg/etc/medialib/imin...ge.gif?direct=1

If memory severed me right... Back in 1998, the original arms package deal for the first batch of eight AH-64D Apache attack helicopters does not include the Longbow Fire Control Radar System but it was subsequently added later on. As there's no official reports from MINDEF about the second batch of AH-64D Apache attack helicopters being equipped with the Longbow Fire Control Radar System (Is There..?? They Don't Even Have A Apache Attack Helicopter Link In Their Weapons List). What i'm about to say here is just a pure speculation of mine...

Boeing official designation for the AH-64D Apache attack helicopter is this, "Equipped with radar, the aircraft is known as the AH-64D Apache Longbow. Without radar, it is the AH-64D Apache." (SEE END NOTES NO. 01) and in their offical news release on the second purchase of the AH-64D Apache attack helicopters (SEE END NOTES NO. 02) by the Republic Of Singapore, they termed the AH-64 Apache attack helicopters, "Apache Longbow". Which means that the 12 Apache attack helicopter must be equipped with the Longbow Fire Control Radar System, as defined by them. So mine conclusion is that the other 12 AH-64D Apache Longbow attack helicopters are equipped with the Longbow Fire Control Radar System.

Cheers...


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END NOTES

No. 01 - Boeing Official Definitions For The AH-64 Apache Attack Helicopter

No. 02 - Boeing Press Released On The Purchase Of 12 Additional AH-64 Apache Attack Helicopters by The Republic Of Singapore.


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I believe there is a official announcement abt the 2nd batch becos it is widely reported and in FMS.

Here a interesting read abt the Apaches in battle:
http://www.defensedaily.com/cgi/rw/show_ma...=0104apache.htm

Here is more proof of the purchase, in fact the 2nd batch eventhough no mention of Longbow radars , come with the latest Arrowhead M-TADS/PNVS!!! B)

For more info read from here:
http://www.tealgroup.com/samples/sample2-wmcab.pdf

For the AH-64D Apache attack helicopters to be re-deployed back to Singapore as early as next year came more or less a shocked to me. As the original year for the re-deployment of the AH-64D Apache attack helicopters back to Singapore's airspace is somewhere in 2008. Any official press release by MINDEF on why the the AH-64D Apache attack helicopters is back early...???

From GlobalSecurity.Com... "As part of the sale, the helicopters must remain in the continental United States until 2008. All Army organizations having or scheduled to receive the Apache Longbow helicopters were considered as potential training hosts with Singapore’s PEACE VANGUARD Detachment. However, based upon air space concerns, the competition for training ranges and the high Operations Tempo (OPTEMPO) of Army Divisions, the selection of Silverbell and the training affiliation with the Army National Guard’s 1st Battalion, 285th Attack Helicopter Battalion was deemed the most efficient and desirable."


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Mind posting the full web-link for the quote on the Arrowhead M-TADS/PNVS targeting system. Thanks... or is it in the PDA document...??? LoL, can't access the file...


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I believe it was officially announcement by Def Minister Teo when he visited the sqn last year, he said then they will be coming back in 2006 but no exact timeframe, the recent report give a more exact timeframe.

Here the link :
http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/news_and_...10may04_fs.html

Anyway,I believe that RSAF should extend the Peace Vanguard Detachment and only send some back to SG becos of their vast training area plus to learn from the invaluable combat experiences of the US Apaches pilots.

Yes, it is in the PDF file, you could d/l the free Acrobat Reader from here :

http://www.adobe.com/

No Longbow in the original 1998 purchase. But in 2002, Longbow was delivered. According to a CIA document in the internet, Longbow was thrown into the sale sometime in 1999. I think all the Apache have Longbow.



Singapore seeks U.S. attack helicopters - Pentagon
06:45 p.m Jun 23, 1998 Eastern
By Charles Aldinger

WASHINGTON, June 23 (Reuters) - The Pentagon said on Tuesday Singapore
wanted to buy $620 million in U.S. Apache attack helicopters, missiles and
other high-tech military equipment for the aircraft.

The announcement followed Singapore's promise in January to let U.S.
aircraft carriers, submarines and other warships use a planned $35 million
naval base for port visits and maintenance, beginning in 2000.

Included in the potential sale would be eight AH-64D Apache attack
helicopters built by Boeing Co. and 216 Hellfire laser-guided missiles made
by a consortium of Boeing and Lockheed Martin Corp., the Defence Department
said. The Apaches are powered by General Electric Co. engines. The sale
would include two spare engines, the Pentagon said.

Besides the sophisticated Hellfire missiles, the planned package will
include 9,120 Hydra-70 rockets built by General Dynamics Corp.. The small
rockets are used by the helicopters against armour and enemy ground troops.

The Pentagon noted in the announcement that Singapore, a close friend of the
United States, ``has been and continues to be an important force for
stability and economic progress in Southeast Asia.''

The Pentagon was careful to note that the sale would not include
state-of-the-art fire-control radar equipment included in the U.S. Army's
newest version of the attack helicopter, the Longbow Apache.

On Jan. 15, during a visit to Singapore by U.S. Defence Secretary William
Cohen, the United States and Singapore announced an agreement under which
U.S. aircraft carriers and other large ships will begin using the planned
new port facility in two years.

Cruisers and smaller U.S. Navy ships already use limited facilities in
Singapore for port calls, but giant nuclear carriers must anchor offshore
instead of docking at the strategically located city state between the South
China Sea and the Strait of Malacca.

Mention of the giant new dock, for which ground was broken early this year,
will be added to a memorandum of understanding that already allows U.S.
warships and planes to visit Singapore regularly.

Singapore said use of the base would be granted free of charge.



Singapore takes delivery of its first Apache
By Dominic Nathan 19 May 2002

The Singapore Armed Forces (SAF) yesterday took delivery of 20 Apache attack
helicopters in the United States, marking a major step forward in its
military capability.

Versatile and heavily-armed, the Apaches will allow the SAF to deal with a
range of threats.
The acquisition gives the SAF greater versatility to deal with the full
range of security threats, said the Chief of Air Force, Brigadier-General
Lim Kim Choon.

Apache attack helicopters, which are heavily armed with an array of
sophisticated anti-tank guided missiles, rockets and a 30-mm automatic
cannon, are employed as front-line 'tank busters' and reconnaissance
platforms.

Giving the Apache the edge over other attack helicopters is its Longbow
radar system, which can search an area of 50 sq km in less than six seconds.

CIA Document

99% back in time for asian aerospace

Time is GMT + 8 hours
Posted: 26 November 2005 1539 hrs

RSAF's Apache helicopters expected home early next year
By Farah Abdul Rahim, Channel NewsAsia

TWENTYNINE PALMS, California: The first batch of RSAF's Apache attack helicopters will take to Singapore's skies early next year.

They will make their way from the US, where the training squadron is now based.

The Apaches made their debut at an integrated SAF exercise codenamed Forging Sabre in California.

There was no doubt the Apaches were the centrepiece of the exercise.

They integrated well with the commandos, artillery, and their airforce counterparts, the UAVs and F-16s.

The Apache attack helicopters have come a long way since their purchase was announced in 1999, and should reach full operational capability in two years.

One thing's for sure -- they stole the show at the exercise in California, especially with their Hellfire missiles.

And the pilots undergoing training in the US are looking forward to showcasing the helicopter to Singaporeans.

Said Captain Ang Heng Keong, Apache pilot, RSAF Peace Vanguard Detachment, "I am feeling excited going back and flying the Apache and I guess when the aircraft takes to the skies a lot of Singaporeans will look up and say, that's the Apache. I feel glad going back with the aircraft."

The Apache is one of the most sophisticated and lethal combat helicopters in the world. .................

More from here:
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/sin.../180580/1/.html

From the Sunday Times , Nov 27 2005 by Felix Soh:





Scanned by Spidy, Thanks.

Guys! ;) do you think that SAF DSTA will procure more apaches adding onto our current strength. honestly i m hoping to read the strait times or hear it from channelnewsasia soon that SAF will be acquiring addition 20 apache longbow on top of our current fleet of 20 combat helicopter

LTC Chris talks of maritime operations, and Boeing's planned E version is a navalised Apache.

Worth looking into?But it will be a highly offensive platform.

No E version, but a Blk III version planned. Will feature improved Longbow radars with enhanced maritime modes, which will be useful for attacking FACs in littoral warfare missions. Will also have UAV Level 4 control capabilities, though I dont think that'll apply so much to international users. The Blk III was promoted to users of the Apache, but there has been no indication whatsoever that Singapore is specifically interested in Blk IIIs.

Worth keeping a look-out.Level 4 UAV control capability would mean that the Apache is equipped with another role.

Mother ship anyone? Haha.

The thing is are the Apache links which are to be campatible with the Shadow 200s and other US UAVs compatible with our UAV links? Not too sure about that.

One thing , they are also looking at air-intercept role for the Apaches, which mean to be armed with a short range AAM.

So what will it be??

Mistral and AIM-9 I believe are the most likely candidates, I believe it will be more cost effective for us to use our older AIM-9s for the Apaches.

The US Apaches Bn consist of 15 a/c each. So for our case, maybe 12 a/c per Bn and since we have 4 Div, 4x12=48 Apaches!?!

Well, I hope all SAF Div have their own organic Apaches Bn for support, but the Apaches are not really cheap, one is more than USD20~22mils, additional Longbow radar is abt USD4.5mils , so a Longbow Apaches is abt USD26mils.

So aditional 28 a/c will be abt USD600mils, and let say 1/3 will come with Longbow 8 x 4.5= USD36mil. which come to a total of USD636mils and that not even include weapons like missiles and rockets, and spares.

But if we look at the current strategic situation in SEA, nations that have a substantial armoured force is only Thailand and Vietnam, and since Thailand is our ally and Vitenam is too far as well too poor to be able to have military adventure against us.

So I think our current 20 Apaches should give us sufficient capability to handle any contingency that may arise in the near future.

Perhaps we could make do with a company level size force.Say two Apache Coys per Division?

20 at present, we could add 15 more and 35 can be split into each Div getting 8, with 3 in a Battlespace Coordinator role.

Is there a need for more Apaches? I don't know, but it seems like the deal was concluded before the budget crunch which resulted in the cut in number of SH-60s ordered. I would expect that if there really was free cash it would go first towards restoring the original requirements of naval heli program?

Hi Guys, to be honest, I think we all know that the true current inventory of our hardwares are top secret, though a rough estimate would be a safe assumption. I honestly won't be surprised that we actually have more Apaches than we originally thought we have, becos firstly I don't think all Apaches need to have the Longbow system becos as long as the targeting Longbow has the target data, it can be shared amongst other Apaches (non-Longbow) right? So with that in mind, SAF can actually afford more units. Also from personal experience, I did experience an occasion where I saw our very own F16 (with our AF insignia) coming in for a landing @ Paya Lebar when I was walking home from school several weeks before the news on TV played a footage of our F16s landing @ Paya Lebar which the news reporter said that they were coming in from the US!! The naval helicopter program isn't in as much of a urgency becos we do have the MPAs and the naval helos are mainly to support the new frigates. Actually, the helo replacement for the AF is more urgent, despite having the Chinooks becos the good old Hueys are shut down already. They are considering the Blackhawks so as to cut down on maintenance costs as the navy would be operating the Seahawks (naval version of the Blackhawks)right?

AIM-9s on Apaches? Errr.....The weight and drag of this weapon will be horrible on the Apache's maneuverability :(

Anyway, I would prefer the Iglas (equivalent to the Stingers on the Apaches).

C'mon, if the engineers here can fit the Iglas on the M113s, surely they can adapt it to fit onto the Apache.

Not quite as easy I would image. The fire control system software would not be released to ST Aero to integrate the Igla with.

I read from some China sources that they have this specializze anti heli missile by the name of TY-90 or something on that line, it claims to be only 20kg. :blink:

Yeah.

The M113 was diff.We came up with the FCS ourselves.And I'm sure the IGLA source codes are with us since we are licensed to produce them IIRC.

Well, I said Mistral or AIM-9 is becos that they both in our inventory as well as been tested on the Apache before.

http://www.tealgroup.com/samples/sample2-wmcab.pdf

One thing I am not sure the current Mistral that we have can be used for such A-A role, one thing our older AIM-9 should be no problem.

And since I believe the Apaches air-intercept role is most likely to engage enemy helo than fighters , so it dun really need the latest AAM,so use the older AAM in our inventory for the Apaches, the better AAM like the Python or future AIM-9X for our fighters.

The Ah-64's can be fitted with AIM-9's and Mistrals or so it says on the website.

Apache Helicopters Return
Posted: 23 Jan 2006, 1450 hours (Time is GMT +8 hours)

Three Singapore Armed Forces (SAF) Apache Longbow attack helicopters (AH-64D) returned to Singapore today, after a four-year deployment in Arizona with the Republic of Singapore Air Force's Peace Vanguard detachment. The public will be able to get up close to the Apache during Asian Aerospace 2006, held from 21-26 February.

http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/news_and_...23jan06_nr.html

Someone I know working in the Ubi area saw an Antonov 124 land at PLAB at around noon today. Followed a few minutes later by an ATI DC-8. They should be the ones carrying the Apaches and crew.

I think this only first trip, perhaps 3 more will be coming back and the next time will be the brand new Batch 2 non Longbow Apaches?

( i.e. 3 Longbow and 3 non Longbow Apaches)

Anyway , it seem they are here to greet the delivery of PT-91s which is expected to start delivery this year!! :P

Mods, perhap this thread should merge with this and renamed as "Exercise Forging Sabre & Apaches" :

Exercise Forging Sabre, SAF 1ST 3G Integrated Strike Excercise

Sorry guys, wats PT-91?? Is it some new equipment?

I tot the Apaches we are getting would all be Longbow version. Would RSAF by any chance be getting some Kiowas as the US Army are putting them in storage. The Kiowas are a good replacement for the current light helos that we operate and they are good complement to the Apaches too.

The papers mentioned C130s as the transport for the Longbows.And it was quoted to b 20 Longbows.I believed we took up the option for the rest?

Or is my info wrong?Hmm..

Yes, the Kiowas will be more than adequate replacement for the Fennecs.

I heard one flying at 2030 today

I believe you have a typo here , should be 8 Longbow, 12 non-Longbow.

That's why I sensed a fish. :D

With the Longbow radar, I dun think that these Apaches need any LOH like Kiowa anymore, am I wrong??

Well, actually the kiowas could supplement our apaches. They are more capable than the fennecs and also for use as armed recce helos. after the retirement of hueys, there basically no gunships anymore (I don't know if its still essential to have gunships, but I suppose it still is becos SAF is moving towards a rapid deployment strategy and Infantry are also trained in helo ops) The kiowas would make quite a suitable gunship platform - armed with a chain-gun and a unguided rockets pod.

as what Gary said if we have the APG-78 Longbow Radar why do we need the kiowas. We are upgrading not downgrading :huh: .

The apache itself is a formidable "Gunship". i dont see logic behind your statement
Sayaret and kinda off contradicting :lol:

An Fighter Aerial Display of F-15 and F-16. Copter Apaches, Chinook, S-70B Seahawk and Super Puma.LST escorted by an Armada of Delta Class Frigates subsequently sjoormen/vastegotland Submarine. Dramatic performance huh thats gonna be in 4 years times. Gonna Kowtow to OUR YOUNG ARMED FORCE :rolleyes:.

Any possible display of our new MBT will be most welcome.\
i wan Merkava Mk 4, i wan Merkava Mk 4 hehe

Kiowas can be integrated as a organic brigade air support for our infantry/Guards.

The Longbows are there for anti-armor and battlefield awareness, the Kiowas form a different role, and IMHO, the 3G SAF needs to improve on organic air support.