The Feb 27 issue of AWST had a short passage stating that Singapore was considering purchasing an unspecified number of ATR 42MP MPAs to supplement the F50 MPAs. Also, the F50 MPAs are due to receive an upgrade to improve maritime surveillance capabilities.

I understand that there were some efforts to get more F-50s from commercial operators some time back though they are hard to come by.

ATR42s, are they still in production?

sorry but wads an MPA?? :(

MPA - Maritime Patrol Aircraft.

I think the RAF operates Nimrods, USN uses land based Orions and carrier based Vikings, French uses ?(sorry cannot recall).

I think Malaysia use modified C-130.

I'm no expert.

let me guess..rsaf uses the fokker 50 rite...been on one before....or issit the E-2C Hawkeye??

LaoTiKo, how far back did you first hear of it? Do you know of the number of aircraft they were looking to acquire?

Yes, the F-50 is our very own MPA. Lots of home made stuffs on-board. E-2C is used for Over The Horizon targetting for the Harpoon missile.....I think.

Before that it was the Skyvan.

French uses the Atlantique.

Edit: Germans uses the Atlantique too.

2 years ago.....IIRC. Numbers - near to half a dozen but don't quote me!

RSAF may be "buying" ATR 42MP MPAs to supplement the F50 MPAs as more comminment to the Straits of Malacca. I guess it is also a "measure" in case any more "accident" happen to Fokker company. Imaging Fokker is to be sold to another company and F-50 parts are stop from production. RSAF will have to D.I.Y/source/canniblised/pay for old working part.

Do anyone have information to the special "black raven" version of RSAF F-50? I heard we only have 1.

Are these aircrafts better than the PC3 Orions? Better in terms of technological and performance. From wat I read, the PC3s are amongst, if not the best MPAs around. Perhaps that's becos' of the equipment onboard. Would the possible new MPAs be equipped with foreign/indigenous equipment or both?? By the way, how are our own Fokkers equipped??

seems like RSAF is now on a drive to upgrade its airborne sensor capability...if i'm not wrong there was some report about RSAF looking for a replacement for our E-2Cs too

Certainly, the mission consoles and all the mission software will be local as in present F50 MPA.

I speculate the sensors will be foreign except maybe a possibility of a local LPI maritime surveillance radar? Magnetic Anamoly(?) Detector? ESM package?

I'm just surprised they are going for ATR42s which suggest to my un-educated mind, an extension of the area of ops or re-definition of our sea line of comms. Deeper waters -> sonobuoys?

MAD detectors are not as useful in the littorals, IIRC. Apparently there are too many shipwrecks and junk on the seabed that causes too many false alarms for MAD to be a useful detector of subs in the littorals, from what I know.

Perhaps sonar mapping required to reduce the false alarms? That's quite alot of work maybe justifying another RSS Jupiter. I wonder if it's feasible and cost effective investment.

Then there's a airborne laser minehunting device can be modified for this application that may reduce the workload.

New minehunting technologies

Anybody knows if external sonar buoy launcher can be fitted to any one of the 8 hardpoints thus giving the MPA ASW detection capabilites?

from what i know, when the fokker 50 MPAs were bought, their capabilities were more advanced than the P3C then.

the aircraft evalution at that time before the Fokker 50s were bought were,

1. Lockheed P3 Orion, not selected as it was too expensive.
2. atlantique, the airframe didnt offer potential for upgrading.
3. CN-235 MPA, not on the original shortlist, RSAF only evalute the aircraft at the request of Habbie. aircraft couldnt get amount with the weight of electronics the RSAf was planning to install.
4. Fokker 50, fokker was willing to customise to RSAF requirements, fokker was hoping that RSAF buy six instead of the five we have now.

another note, ther Germans dont fly atlantiques anymore, they bought over the dutch Orions to replace the atlantiques.

Interesting to note that Minister said that F-50 upgrade is an option. Looks like no new MPA replacement expected.

Maybe they are considering waiting for the P-8 poseidon system(or upcoming alternatives) to have a mini version mountable on the G550 for platform commonality while currently extracting max value from our Fokkers?

P-8 @US$250m each too expensive I think for budget. Might as well get more F-15s.

Fokkers are 17 yrs old + manufacturer closed down liao. Skyvans retired after 22 years of service.

An interesting candidate would be Indonesia's CN-235 MPA. The MPA version's been used not only by indonesia but also brunei, south korea, UAE, spain, ireland, turkey. Korea's reported total cost contract = US$94.5m.

France just ordered 8 CN-235-300s for US$305m ($38m each) and the a/c is used by over 30 countries including Thailand, Philippines, Malaysia and US.

Spain also has the CASA CN-295 MPA which is used by Algeria, Chile and Portugal, besides the transport version. Interesting to note Chila used that to replace P-3s.

The alternative is the C-27j which unfortunately is not widely adopted in the MPA version.

Interesting article - CN-235 at Singapore (air show):
http://sains.kompas.com/read/2010/02/17/07...35.di.Singapura

what about LALEE and possibly the Heron TP ?

Got to consider that why with the global hawk winning USN BAMs, there's still the P-8.

Even Hermes can do certain MPA missions already, and in the context of Singapore's smaller TW, persistence of Hermes 450s already considerable.

MPA features will probably be an information node. AIS-data aggregator/link capability and prosecute suspicious ID targets which don't show up with AIS. Israel has already installed systems to use AIS-data into UAV platforms.

A couple of years back, I mentioned on DT that AIS could be the basis for target ID. Then, I was already a couple of years outdated cos Singapore port authority already came up with regs to govern even down to pleasure craft already.

What UAV can't do is prosecute sub-surface targets. Although S-70 does close that gap, ASW persistence from air platform will be an issue. UAV can't launch torps yet. Neither can fighters. S-70 doesn't have the speed and range.

From detection stand-point, the scan eagle uav is probably the most advanced of UAVs currently (with the most persistence) at the moment to deal with sub surface detection. And RSN already trialed the platform from LPDs. But the anti-sub version will still take some time. Even then. US intend to use scan eagle from P-8 as range from control station still an issue.

As RSN/RSAF does have MPA cover more than just SG TW, I think UAV control range issue + torp release platform will mean MPA aircraft may still be needed in SG.

can they be used as MPAs? I mean, sure you can stick on radars and weapons hardpoints, weighing it down, but will they have the same endurance as the big planes given that those are smaller airframes, specifically the Heron? Small airframes might also mean less fuel, and possibly tougher to control when the weather goes bad? Moreover, I doubt they can carry the same payload as most present MPAs, possibly less, so that might mean a UAV MPA with less teeth...

however I must say I like the idea of employing UAVs (who doesn't want to enjoy aircon?)...but you'll probably need a pretty big one, possibly bigger than the Heron? LALEE might make a good candidate, especially a navalised version. Use smaller UAVs for point defense/attack?

sorry if I don't sound like I'm taking a stand here, just thinking aloud :D

What about DHC-8 Dash 8 Q300 as a MPA Platform?

It is being used by the UAE, Swedish and Australian for Maritime surveillance. There should be no short fall for airframes as it is widely used by a number of countries for domestic air travel.

Production of the 300 series already ended last year. Now only Q-400 series.

Official specs:
http://www.q400.com/q400/en/specifications.jsp

Hi Weasel1962

Thanks for the information on the Q400.

The Q400 is just as suitable and should fit into RSAF requirment. Even though the production line for Q300 is close, it seem that quite a number of country have aquired ex-airliner Q300 and is still very attractive to be converted into MPA version. If I am not wrong, latest operator of this MPA is Iceland and Japan.

Isn't Japan building the P-1 as a replacement platform for its current P-3s?

yes, Japan is building the P-1 to replace the P-3s...

Hmm, speaking about the Hermes, have anyone managed to spot them in the air yet???

While UAVs seems a viable and safer option, our UAVs (Searcher and Hermes) does not offer the offensive package. Spotting a hostile unit and requesting for support will take time. Our current Fokkers have Harpoons integrated and i suppose our next MPA will continue to have this capability, if not better.

Meaning, i doubt UAVs will fill the MPA role that soon.

on that same point, i think the issue with present UAVs is that if you want them armed and fitted with radar, the additional weight is gonna kill off range and loiter time...

which is why I liked it when stars mentioned LALEE...looks like a good enough platform to have teeth and legs B) edit: if it goes into production, that is...

You guys talking about MPA and not ASW-MPA rite?

when i mentioned heron, i think i was referring to the TP variant. :D current heron II is too small i think. the LALEE thing has always fascinated me. the heron TP seems really similar.

26m wingspan. just a wee bit smaller wingspan than a 737-100.

probably can carry a pretty decent payload as well. but not too sure if its sufficient for a MPA role. the range is supposedly enough to reach iran from israel.

@shotgun

i think you mean BAMS kind of surveillance MPA vs. a MPA which can be used as a weapons platform

There's a whole lot of difference between concepts and operational. The entry of the g-550 should put paid to suggestions that lalee would replace the AEW. I think the g-550 bams will take a while before it beomes a reality.

as much as a LALEE AEW system is unlikely to develop, i'm sure ST isn't shelving this promising airframe yet, I hope, hence my dream of a LALEE and AGM-84 marriage :wub:

anyways I always thought that our E-2s were doing BAMS-type jobs already...IMHO it would be better if this platform can be armed, turning it from a mere pointer to a full fledged bloodhound...

Is the P-8 Poseidon suitable as F-50's replacement? Its definitely faster, longer duration, carries more weapons etc.

someone raised this one page back i think, expensive lah bro. :D 250 million USD per piece. buy 4 also at least USD 1 billion +

i just read the DTI april edition today. seems like the heron TP has a 5 ton payload, open architecture to tweak mission systems and is designed to operate at higher than commercial jet altitude (41,000 feet). is that way too high to be useful for a MPA aircraft ? many overlaps with the G550 as mentioned by weasel.

regarding weapons systems, the article mentioned that it should be able to carry a family of missiles developed by Rafael. spike ER ?

We have to take into consideration that more submarines are becoming operational in our neighbourhood so a more dedicated sub-hunter will be useful.

Given that the P-8 not just can do almost everything the F-50 but more and better. Thus will the higher cost P-8 be cost-effective and therefore justifiable?

Just exploring options

Agreed. Just sharing stuff which i just read about. Not making a comment on p8.

Israel Aerospace Industries' (IAI) ELTA Systems Ltd. (IAI/ELTA), an IAI Group and Subsidiary, has been awarded several contracts worth $33 million from foreign customers for the development and production of the EL/M-2022A Maritime Surveillance Radar (MSR) for Maritime Patrol Aircraft.

IAI/ELTA's MSRs are recognized worldwide for their contribution to operational missions, including maritime warfare operations, surveillance and Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) patrol, anti-drug enforcement operations, coast guard and fishery supervision, and search and rescue operations.
ELTA's airborne radar systems are a well-known, widely used product in operational service with customers worldwide. Recently, a number of news items have been published regarding maritime patrol aircraft employing ELTA's radars to monitor the volcanic ash cloud in Iceland and the oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico.

http://www.iai.co.il/32981-41101-EN/MediaRoom_News.aspx

Rewinged upgraded P-3 first flight..

--> Rewinged P-3 Orion First Flight

Welllll...to answer the original question; it might be a new type in the inventory, but it's not exactly a spring chicken by any stretch of the imagination