I first heard of this in the book Defending the Lion City. Let me talk about the AFVs that will be required to "flesh out" this Division. Also we need to add the AFVs required for the Mechanized Brigades in our Combined Arms Divisions and the sole RDF division. The below is pure speculation on my part.

Divison HQ - M113 and BV206 Command Vehicles (number??)

Divison Arty - M113 and BV206 Command Vehicles (number??)
2 x SPH Arty Bns 2 x 18 = 36 Primus
Command Vehicles - BV206 (number?)
Arty Locating Radar BV206 (number?)

Armoured Combat Engineer Battalion (38th SCE)
AVLBs - M60, Bionix (number ??)

Division Logistics - wheeled vehicles.

2 x Mechanized Brigade
1 x Armoured Brigade

Armoured Brigade
Brigade HQ
2 x Heavy Armoured Bn : 2 x 48 MBT : 96 MBT
1 x Mech Bn : (what is the orbat of a current SAR)

Mechanized Brigade
Brigade HQ
1 x Heavy Armoured Bn : 1 x 48 MBT : 48 MBT
2 x Mech Bn : (what is the orbat of a current SAR)

Why am I still a CPL???

38sce has been disbanded, replaced by AEC in peace time....... the AVLB and CEV will be organic the the ABG in place of a bn attaching here and there. supplemented by the laguans and the SLBs

F-35,

I think this should be an exercise for us to discuss what we think the so called "32nd Div" should be in term orbat and composition in pure speculation, just a mental exercise and not an exercise for others who are in the "know" should leak!!!!

Those in the "know" should refrain from leaking the true orbat but could join in the discussion in the manner which you believe the best composition of the "32nd Div", not the actual one.

So just imagine tat you are in DSTA or Mindef working on this project, submitting your proposals to the top. Pure speculation !!!
You could also speculate based on what SAF has released so far, eg, Primus, Bionix and of course pure imaginary new MBT and light tanks.

Btw , you need to hit 50 posts to get promoted to 3Sgt.

My Dream 32 Div would comprise

2 x Mechanized Brigade
1 x Armoured Brigade

2 x SP Arty Battalion consisting of SP Mortar (AMOS on Bionix + ST SRAMS on Broncos)

1 x Air Defence (Blazar on Bionix / Terrex)

1 x Combat Engineer Battalion

Division HQ
Logisitc
(Bronco / Terrex)

===========================================

Armoured Brigade consists of :
2 tank battalion (30 tanks; 10 Bionix ("up-armoured" variant)
1 mechanised battalion (30 Bionix of different variant + 10 MBT)


Mechanized Brigade consists of:
1 tank Battalion
2 mechanised battalion
(per above tank vs Bionix ratio)

===========================================

Vehicles:
MBT - 120mm gun; approx 50 to 55 tons (max); 23+ hp/tonne; Road Speed approx 65 km/h; Advanced Thermal Imager / CCITV with hunter killer; Digitised battle information system; Active Defensive Aid suite.

"Up Armour" Bionix - add on reactive armour; integrated Spike launchers (like the Tow system on Bradley turret); Digitised battle management system; Active Defensive adi suite.

................

just dreaming

my 2 cts

add ah-64 apache helicopters into 32nd div

in-house tank killers:)

just like US army armored cavalry regiments

plus all landrovers to be replaced by bv206 / bronco

nothing personal here :D

replacing the landrovers with bv206 is not very pratical lah......the landrover though old still have its tactical value.....for example change 1 flat tyre easier and less time consuming that changing the whole track........

Before I start, let me explain myself first.
I was in a armour camp during my NS time in the 80s and was posted out from there after ORD, so in a way , I know sh!t abt armour formation now, let alone the so called new Div.

My take will be based on info on what is available in the net and other publication or rumours from the net.

Based on many sources, we have abt 1000 M113s, 350 SM1, 54 Primus, abt 300-400 Bionix, 12 M60 AVLB ,80-100 MBts ,8 CEV and 36 CET.

We also have the RBS70 mounted on the V-200 and also the new Igla(3,440) and 12 Dzhigit launchers from Russia.

The question now is, whether our speculated new Div is fully armoured Div or a fully mechanised div or in between?

My speculation is most probably a fully mechanised Div or 2 Mech Bde and 1 Armoured Bde becos of the possible threats we are facing , the terrain of the region and the rumoured number of MBTs.

Under the Div HQ:
2 SPH arty Bn 18x2 =36 Primus
1 SADA Bn( I hope is something the Typhoon OWS, with 25mm and Igla/Mistral missiles mounted on a Bionix)
1 Signal Bn, or rather NCW support Bn with Fantail UAV etc.
1 DISCOM, logistic support based on the Bronco.
1 CE Bn with Leguan bridges, floating bridge, plant engineer etc.
1 Armoured Recon Bn(Not sure what it should be, Bionix?)

Mechanised Bde:
The Mech Bde will most probably be in the form of our SAR but the equipment will be different.

As for IFVs for this Div will be the Bionix, whether armoured or mechanised , a small number M113 will be probably for command post, ambulance, armoured pioneer, fitters and maybe we still retain 120mm SP on the M113s as organic arty in the mechanised Bn or the SRAMS on Bronco.

The Bn/Bde may have their own organic ADS based on the Igla shoulder fired SAM.
The Bde will also have their own organic AEC with Bionix LSB, CET and armoured pioneer etc.

Now the tanks portion I have some problem, based on rumours, we have only abt 100 MBTs, which could mean that all the three Bde will be mechanised and in the same way for our SAR Bn, 12 MBTs /Bn i.e. a fully mechanised Div will have abt 108 MBTs.

But this is quite unlikely IMHO becos :
Why bother to have the Primus to be weight below 30 tons where all your tanks are above 50 tons?

Therefore I believe that the Div will most probably be two mechanised Bde and one armoured Bde. And the mechanised Bde will most probably be using a light tanks, at the moment still using the SM1 but will be fully replaced by the new light tank in the future. The Armoured Bde will be as follow:

Armoured Bde :
Abt 30-35 MBTs( above 50 tons) and abt 30 IFVs in such heavy armoured Bn, abt 100 MBTs in the Bde.
The rest of the support group will be the same as in the mechanised Bde but the Bde organic AEC will be with the heavier M60 AVLB, CEV.

As for suggestion that the Div should have their own organic Apaches, but the problem is that we have only 20 of them, therefore they will be shared among all the Div and mostly will be attached to Div rather than under the Div.

My 2 cents worth. :P

Thanks for adding the DISCOM, ADA Bn in and also state that 38 SCE is disabled....

I wonder what types of Brigade they will have... or will they simiply have:

2 Armoured Brigade (actually mechanized
1 Inf Brigade.

The difference with the Armed Div with the CAD is that it has 2 Armd Brigades and SPH instead of towed 155s.

But then where would the MBTs fit in???

Let the discussion roll-on.

I assume you are refering to my post.

The MBTs will be in one Armoured Bde where the number of tanks per units will be more than that of the mechanised Bde which only use light tanks.

Summary of Mechanised Div:
2 mechanised Bde with light tanks and 3X of IFVs.
Approx. 40 x2 = 80 light tanks
Approx. 120 x2 = 240 IFVs

1 armoured Bde with MBTs with number as high or even greater than IFVs.
Approx. 100 MBTs
Approx. 100 IFVs

Therefore the total Bionix IFVs is abt 340, 80 light tanks and MBTs abt 100.
Based on many open sources, we should have abt 300-400 Bionix and abt 100 MBTs , so it is abt there. B)

Gary1910's mech DIV. ORBAT does remind me of the Swedish army's mechanized infantry brigades which, consist mainly of IFVs and light tank destroyers. The Swedes limited the deployment of their excellent Leopard IIS to the armored brigades - they saw no point in overloading the motorized infantry with heavy organic armor.

Are light tracked AGSs able to generate the same shock effect as MBTs? Genderkan from Sgforums seem to have pyschological training, so perhaps he should know.

In any case, I should think that organic artillery and reconnaissance assets are important to individual brigades if we are to engage in maneuver either for attrition or for strategic depth. Fire on call is an art that is fast disappearing in this world of ours and the SAF should reconsider employing their artillery assets as such. Big ticket items like the Primus and towed FH-2000 are truly the "kings of the battlefield" and are most desirable - but even by adding a small unit of 120mm mortars to the brigade artillery and allowing frontline battalion observers to coordinate the fire mission can prove to be a decisive edge. The worst that can occur is when an overzealous Div. artillery commander bunches up all artillery assets into le grande batterie and denies individual bde and btn commanders the suppressing or forward bombardment needed for spearhead and breakthrough. Artillery need not be punitively deadly - by just creating the shock effect and denying the opposing force from reacting contributes alot to the friendly forces' mission already.

Reconnaissance units should also be attached to individual brigades. During the blitzkrieg, the Germans had several corps on call and so can afford the unfortunate "stray" division engaging the enemy and turning the battle general. The SAF does not enjoy such advantage in quantity and cannot even afford a single battalion from generating an engagement into a generla battle when it is not supposed to under mission objectives. Individual orgainc recon units allows brigade commanders to feel and probe what lays before him and increases his options to operate independently and greatly. Important intelligence findings from organic recon assets also contribute to the overall intelligence gathering effort of the division.

And what of divisional support assets? How will the division support units be organized so that the divsion can be sustained indefinitely without leaving behind a long logistic trail? How should the forward positioning of logistical systems be like? These are questions to be answered also.

Yup , it should have a armoured recon Bn in the stucture, I will edit my old post to include this.
And of course there is others asset like LRRP and arty FO, but it is under Div arty and G2.

Good analysis

Speaking of G2, the American experience during Operation Desert Storm was that superior HQ G2 was able to "support" them with overall "Hail Mary" maneuver details and what was going on in Iraq proper but it was unable to supply them with local intelligence in the vicinity of their units, hence individual bde/btn commanders may know the mental and pyschological state of Bagdhad, they did not know what was beyond the sand berm to their left or behind the ridge they were to cross.

The problem with intelligence at higher level is that they tend to look only at the "big picture" and generally ignore the localized ones. But the localized intelligence obtained is the most crucial for front-line unit commanders to make their decisions and execute orders and these actions are the one that constitute the big push.

Allowing frontline units their own intelligence and reconnaissance assets is a plus in this case.

That will be the problem of the past, in the future unit's S2 dun just rely on just the scout and aerial photos/ UAV's video from the top but the ability to actively collect intel that is useful to them.

The reason is the introduction of mini & micro UAVs , the mini UAV which could be as small as as 10 cm could be use for over the hill surveillance by unit as small as a platoon.

The coy/Bn level may have the bigger mini UAV which is still manportable or easily transported like our own Fantail UAV, weight only 2.3kg .

So in a way, the future unit will have the ability to actively collect battlefield intel on their own instead of getting the big picture from the top.

Great!

Let's hope that these new reconnaissance and artillery concepts would be implemented into individual bdes and btns, enabling more autonomy and more effective battlefield control and command.

As well as keep my crazy S2 off my back while me and my men try to survive in hostile territory. :D

Another lesson learned from Operation Desert Storm by the Americans was the way artillery was deployed. Throughout the entire land campaign, allied planners were worried about the potentially devastating effect Saddam's vaulted collection of howitzers could unleash on coalition land forces. While their worst fears never realized, the threat was nevertheless too real to be ignored and hence for the first time in modern warfare, counter-artillery fire was the first priorty of the artillery arm and subsequentkly followed by suppressive fire support and target neutralization etc etc.

All heavy guns of the US contingent were linked to the Tacfire system which was programmed in such a way that counter-battery survelliance was always active and that once opposing forces artillery was detected in action, the Tacfire system automatically halts all "routine" fire missions and gives instructions to artillery commands where and when to fire. Problems arosed when the Tacfire system allocated too much running memory to the counter-battery survellience and often passed routine fire-mission orders too late (a lag time of about 15mins or so since first requested) to the artillery units.

Also, all fire-missions were allocated their distinctive action codes. Artillery units never knew what they were firing at - all they did was to punch in the coordinates distance and type of rounds stated in the action codes. Kinda like the hot-side crew in a fast food restaurant - repsonding to orders but not knowing whom their cooking for. Only fire-support observers and artillery commanders were privy to these action-codes hence making direct fire on call impossible for other frontline commanders.

During his time in the Gulf, Robert Leohard had the unpleasant experience of his artillery being unable to support his bde effectively. When Leonhard's superior decided that he needed suppressive fire 200m to the left of the current barrage, the artillery units were unable to help because he did not have the existing action codes of the current fire mission (the fire support officer had the codes but he was not present then). The artillery was unable to help even if it wanted to because of the restrains set upon it by technology and in the end it was the brigades organic mortar assets that delivered the requested suppressive fire.

In fact, I think SP Mortars on tracks and wheels are more important for an armoured divisions than SP guns. I wonder why and if SAF will ever adopt the AMOS on a Bionix chassis and the Super Rapid Mortar on the Bronco chassis to support armoured battalions. BTW, do we have smart mortar munitions? haven't seen or heard one in SAF inventory.

Probably it will be good to have the 155mm SPH at the Division level doing long range interdiction, counter battery and other strategic role and then SP rapid fires mortars at Brigrade level support.

Are there any mortarts organic to the Infantry brigades? I know Infantry Bn are suppose to have organic 81mm mortart support.

We already have SP 120mm mortar on M113 for quite some time for armour unit's arty.

The AMOS system which twin barrel and double rate of fire( rumoured to 26 round/min) as compare to any other mortar system available could actually reduce the number of veh as well as manpower. It also has secondary direct fire mode . But it is very ,very expensive option since it is the top of the line at the moment, which I believe it just not worth it as a indirect fire unit's arty at the moment.

To actually save cost, if we want to upgrade our unit's arty, our own 120mm SRAMS with sustained fire rate of 18 round/min should be more than sufficient than the much more expensive AMOS.

But to me, at the moment it is not even neccessary to replace the current system unless of course due to wear and tear of the old SP 120mm mortar on the M113 chassis.

As for smart munitions, it will still be hush hush info, even we have I dun think that even our NSF even know abt it since it is not neccessary to let them know. :ph43r:

How potentially effective is a 120 mm mortar round compared to that of a 155 mm howitzer shell? Taking into consideration the dense forage and undergrowth in this part of the world, I should think the latter gives much better suppressive and fire support effect (my logic would be larger shell, larger warhead no?).

Even if it is unable to kill off the enemy, the shock effect of the entire area being devastated by falling shells in a "hurricane" bombardment is good enough support for the armor and infantry. Can 120 mm mortar rounds give the same results as 155 mm shells?

Now that we've discussed several issues pertaining of divisional reconnaissance and NLOS fire, let's discuss on the logistical side of the division.

If the division is to go "deep", there must be a way to keep it adequately supported with supplies/refits/replacements. Forward positioning logistics is still a topic that very little people havE actually covered. I've checked over the net as well as corresponded with a couple of ADF guys over the subject and they knew nothing much about it also. So I'm wondering if there are any enlightened few here that might share this important trade with us.

logistic supply topic should not be discussed over the net... as its secrecy and successful operation is critical to a war. :angry:

All tenets we've discussed here are crucial to the conduct of wars and to the success of their outcomes. In any case we are following Gary1910's lead in discussing general matters in relation to what a fictitous division should be like.

I ask not for classified details to be revealed but merely the concepts of forward-logistics to be shared by those who know them.

best not discuss.... for everyones' sake...

you dont need to discuss such matters here, as unwitting disclosure by others sharing their past experience in logistic support might compromise the secrecy of SAF logistic sytem.

ok to discuss weapons and technology..... but not operations...

While, I'll respect your wishes to this point, but let's hear what others think about it also.

Forward logistics support..Isn't that what our Bronco and BV206 were planned for?Manuverability and armored platforms for survival of replenishment forces along the MSR.

Yup, based what is known, we have abt 300 unarmoured BV-206, and some speculated number of at least 500 Bronco in two main variants, Troop carrier APC version, and the cargo version .

So far the Bronco has also been used in the command post, Arty ammo replenished veh for the Primus etc. A true utility veh.

While, there are two types of modern day logistical systems today and both have their cons and pros.

In logistic push, the "guys at the back" try their utmost to catch up with the forward echelons and ensure that the latter recieve a continuous supply. This technique ensures that foward warfighting elements can concentrate on the battle and not be hampered by the management of their own logistical assets. A major detriment of logistic push is that it can lead to logistical bottlenecks whereby the push to forward supplies accumulate at one point and stockpiles, instead of reaching the forward lines.

In logistic pull, frontline units and their organic logistc assets are responsible for plannig and managing their supply lines. Rear support would only push so far before the frontline logistical units shuttle back and forth to replendish. The advantage of this technique is that it eliminates the bottlenecks, identifies what each individual unit requires. The disadvantage is that frontline units are left with a messy trail and supply convoys require protection.