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Title: SAF MBT(Main Battle Tank)


cavsg - June 14, 2004 01:34 AM (GMT)
Continue from here

Alucard - June 15, 2004 07:49 PM (GMT)
Was chattin wif a Spore Tech guy about networking (C4) onboard tanks and i believe they are currently developing it for the future tanks. Dunno when it will be done but hope is soon. Cant wait to play wif the new gadget when they install. Future tanks will also be like fighter jets wif LCD screen, battlefield knowledge,etc. Dunno will they put it on Temp? Think mayb not. :ph43r:

gary1910 - June 18, 2004 04:44 AM (GMT)
It was repoerted that one NCW armoured Bde was under evaluation in last year exe in OZ. I speculate that it was not such a great problem in implementing them in all veh. all it need is to replace the old comm set to the new secure network with the right platform(NCW computer), of course some modification need to be done , maybe even a aux power unit , depending on need.

vaxjunior - June 24, 2004 03:22 PM (GMT)
Not sure about comp onboard our current armour...but i wonder how ruggedized those comps must be to tahan the jolts and movements/heat and dust within those environments...anyone knows what systems are used in US systems?

gary1910 - June 27, 2004 11:44 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (vaxjunior @ Jun 24 2004, 11:22 PM)
Not sure about comp onboard our current armour...but i wonder how ruggedized those comps must be to tahan the jolts and movements/heat and dust within those environments...anyone knows what systems are used in US systems?

Dunno much abt the US system , but below an article will give you some idea,

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Technology helps commanders keep tabs on troops

By Fred Zimmerman, Stars and Stripes
European edition, Saturday, June 26, 2004

CAMP ARIFJAN, Kuwait — A relatively new way of viewing the battlefield has commanders in operation centers and troops in the thick of the fight now on the same computer screen.

Those vehicles and battle commands equipped with the Blue Force Tracker can now watch an unfolding fight in almost real time, according to Army Maj. Michael Martyn, tracker program manager. The system allows users to track vehicles on the battlefield and identify enemy positions and trouble spots.

It is made up of several computers, monitors, a Global Positioning System, and satellite communications gear. A completely installed system costs about $20,000 a vehicle.

Each system has a touch screen that lets the user choose between a map or an satellite photo to display forces in the region. If a commander touches a blue icon on his screen, he will quickly learn everything from the type of vehicle and what role the crew is serving to its speed and unit.

“It gives you an overall picture of where your blue buddies are,” said Greg Garrett, system integrator.

Blue Force Tracker is a cousin of Force 21 Battle Command, Brigade and Below, or FBCB2, which uses a similar set-up, but a network of strategically placed radio nodes are used to transmit data via satellites, Garrett said.

FBCB2 was introduced about eight years ago and BFT was created less then five years ago. Garrett said the latter system was designed to link units and commands in the rugged terrain of the Balkans, where its predecessor wouldn’t work.

Half of the vehicles that have the latest system in Iraq were equipped in Kuwait, Garrett said. Not all vehicles were outfitted, he added, but several in each unit were just in time for the start of the war.

“We had installers jumping off the vehicles after finalizing [the system] as [the vehicles] crossed the berm,” Garrett said.

Since the system talks via satellite, Martyn said it has a range that far exceeds typical radios. It especially comes in handy when calling for something like a medical evacuation, he said. Using the GPS, the command knows exactly where to send the help.

Martyn said while the system isn’t real time, it does update often, allowing all who are watching to see progress.

It also allows an individual vehicle to electronically identify a spot on the map, letting everyone else know about potential trouble.

“You can mark where the enemy is and everyone can see that at the same time, allowing a quicker reaction time,” Martyn said. The system could also warn other vehicles of a threat, such as the location of a roadside bomb.

Martyn and Garrett said they are currently installing the system in armored Humvees in Kuwait. They said their crew of five installers can set up an average of 10 vehicles a day. Once those vehicles head to Iraq or Afghanistan, they are turned over to the different rotating units to keep the technology in theater.

So far, military leaders seemed pleased with the system’s results.

“It’s a true combat enabler,” Garrett said. “We’ll query units and ask if the system made a good or bad impact. We’ve heard that it has made a difference between life and death.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?sectio...4&article=22983

Joe Black - June 27, 2004 01:06 PM (GMT)
Yap, SAF is definitely going Network centric "Singapore style". I do wander how compatible they are with the western ones in particular the US networks, etc. A good example was the recent naval exericse where USN and RSN found that their cryptography algorithm are different and it took them a while to sort things out.

LaoTiKo - June 28, 2004 09:03 AM (GMT)
So the networking at CARAT2004 has to do with the encryption rather than the physical layer as implied by the use of their own antenna. :rolleyes:

Something to do with the VPN?

gary1910 - July 2, 2004 10:01 AM (GMT)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
July 2004

Heavy Armor Gains Clout in Urban Combat

by Roxana Tiron


An ongoing debate within the U.S. Army is whether to revise its tactics and doctrine for the employment of heavy armored vehicles in urban areas.

Operations in Iraq prove that the current doctrine, which specifically dissuades the Army from bringing tanks into cities, should be rewritten, said Gen. B.B. Bell, the commander of the Army’s forces in Europe.

“The utility of tanks in the city, not only from a protective envelope, but also from a capabilities perspective, is something that we relearned,” Bell told National Defense. “I think we knew this in previous wars. So, we have to go re-look at our doctrine and make sure that we write our doctrine correctly for using armored platforms in cities.”

In the current doctrine, crafted 20 years ago, “the fundamental precept was [that] the worst place where you can take a tank is in the city,” Bell said in an interview during the 2004 Armor conference at Fort Knox, Ky.

“The general belief was that you’d be immediately engulfed with rocket-propelled grenades, [the tank] would be caught up in this terrible caldron of fires and, therefore, this was not an appropriate platform to operate in cities,” he explained. “That has obviously proven to be a doctrine of exclusion that was not correct.”

Stability and support operations have turned out more lethal than expected, he said, and therefore, the requirement for armored platforms, ranging from tanks to Stryker light armored vehicles and up-armored Humvees, “is as important as it has ever been and, perhaps, more so,” he said.

Lt. Gen. Thomas Metz, the commander of the U.S. Army’s 3rd Corps and the multi-national Corps in Iraq has required more tanks and Bradleys, according to Chief Master Sgt. William Gainey. “We are all beefing up,” he said after a presentation at Fort Knox. “We had what we thought we needed, but it did not prove enough.”

Officials at Fort Hood, Texas, were preparing last month to send 50 tanks to Iraq.

“One thing is for sure: to gain proximity to the enemy and survive his ambush attacks, having sufficient armor surrounding our forces—physically surrounding them—has proven vital,” Bell said.

“Armored platforms do have a role in cities,” he argued. “They have a role first to protect our infantry formations as they fight house to house. Then, they have a role as a support platform, or firing platform to defeat enemy forces in cities.”

U.S. main battle tanks—the M1A1 Abrams and its updated versions, the M1A2 and the M1A2 System Enhancement Program—carry precise, direct-fire weapons that can cut the risk of civilian casualties, which normally would be high in a city, said Bell.

“An artillery piece, or even certain types of aerial delivered fire, produce a wide range of collateral damage that a direct-fire, tank-like weapon does not produce,” he said.

“I would take this tank in the urban environment any day, because having extra protection would be something that we like,” Staff Sgt. Jared Hamilton said. Hamilton fought with the 3rd Infantry Division in Iraq.

“Tanks not only provide over-watch, they can also blow up a house much better than the firepower from six soldiers,” he told National Defense. “In order to disable a tank, one would have to get pretty close to it.”

But that does not happen often, he said. The shock factor of an Abrams tank is fairly effective. Insurgents are less likely to attack if a tank is present, he explained.

Hamilton’s former unit from the 3rd ID, training at Fort Polk, La., before being re-deployed, is using the tanks in support of the dismounts, he said.

In the past, infantry always entered cities first, with armor following, explained Gainey. Now, “what we are trying to do is put the armor in first, blow the holes and [then] let the infantry come in,” he said. “That is working well.”

Success in the urban environment requires the effective use of the combined arms teams—the mix of scouts, infantry and armored platforms, according to Bell. “What you do not want to do is use any of these capabilities by themselves.”

The Army’s intent to build combined arms brigades-modular units organized as combined arms at the lowest level—will not only bring all those organizations together for the fight, but keep them together for their entire organizational life, said Bell.

The 3rd ID, based at Fort Stewart, Ga., is the first to be reorganized under the modularity concept and will test it when they re-deploy to Iraq. The division’s three brigades are being restructured into four “units of action,” including armored, maneuver and aviation components. The division headquarters will become the “unit of employment X.”

The maneuver units of action are made up of an armed reconnaissance squadron, two combined arms battalions, an artillery battalion, a brigade support battalion and an engineer company, according to Maj. Gen. Terry Tucker, the commander of Fort Knox and the Army’s Armor School.

“We had a tradition in the Army for years of tailoring and task-organizing for a mission right before the mission and it worked kind of well, but we have always been troubled that during training and exercises we did not have these organizations permanently formed,” Bell said.

To provide the combatant commanders with cohesive, combat-ready troops, the Army has to figure out how to bring a unit together “at the right time” and keep it together, Tucker explained.

Under a new proposed plan, a brigade should be “rebuilt” over one to three months, then would spend up to eight months training, culminating with a certification exercise. For about 24 to 29 months, the brigade will stay ready to conduct operations and each of these new units of action can expect to go “somewhere, at least once,” said Tucker.

“That gives you about a three-year cycle to build the team, train it, deploy it and bring it back,” Tucker said in a presentation at the armor conference. To support this plan, however, the Army has to restructure the personnel system.

Meanwhile, Fort Knox is leading the Army’s efforts to change the way the service trains its armor and infantry forces, said Tucker, from “private to brigade commander.”

The Army is revamping unit training, according to Tucker. Soldiers and officers are spending more time in live exercises and less on marches and drills.

“Tankers and scouts are not going to be good marchers for the next year or two, because they are conducting tactical movements and combat drills,” Tucker said. Additionally, troops will learn to fire their individual and collective unit weapons at night and during the day, according to Tucker.

Classroom instruction will be curtailed, said Tucker. “Today, what we turn out is a soldier [who] is better prepared to arrive at this first unit to contribute to the effort” as opposed to having to be trained by the platoon sergeant in theater, he said.

Non-commissioned officers also will be better trained to lead crews, squads, sections and platoons. “We are getting great sergeants out in the operational force, a lot faster than we did [before],” said Tucker. Out of 368 soldiers who recently graduated from the Armor School, 240 were in theater.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/article.cfm?Id=1485

gary1910 - July 2, 2004 10:33 AM (GMT)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
July 2004

Israel’s Main Battle Tanks Adapted For Urban Combat, Low-Intensity Conflict

by Sandra I. Erwin


Deadly attacks on light armored vehicles have prompted Israel Defense Forces to increase their use of main battle tanks in patrol roles or other types of low-intensity conflict normally assigned to smaller vehicles. In recent months, the IDF has made several modifications to their main battle tanks, so they can be employed as troop carriers in urban combat.

In early May, 11 soldiers traveling in two M113 light armored infantry carriers died when the vehicles exploded after being hit by rocket-propelled grenades in the Gaza Strip. The IDF subsequently decided that tanks increasingly will be employed to patrol disputed zones such as the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.

IDF officials plan to modify Merkava main battle tanks so they can be employed en lieu of M113s, even though the tanks are much heavier and difficult to maneuver in urban terrain.

The Merkava increasingly will be deployed in low-intensity conflict, said Col. Yaron Livnat, the IDF technical director for the Merkava program.

“We adapt the tank to operate as an infantry carrier,” Livnat told an industry conference sponsored by the Institute for Defense and Government Advancement.

Removing the ammunition from the back of the tank opens up enough space to fit five soldiers, said Livnat. The tank operators can scan and observe from inside the vehicle, with the hatch closed. The IDF made the equipment “easy to operate,” said Livnat, because not every crew is made up of professionally trained tankers. Some of the tanks are run by infantry soldiers.

Patrolling hostile urban areas in a tank can be dangerous, Livnat said, because the vehicles cannot maneuver as easily as light armored personnel carriers, and can be threatened by a range of weapons—from rocket-propelled grenades fired from tall buildings to trip wires and Molotov cocktails.

The Muslim casbah is “the most challenging environment” for tanks, said Livnat.

IDF vehicles also have been attacked with shaped charges that target the underbelly of the tank. Livnat said he predicts that U.S. tanks in Iraq will suffer more underbelly strikes as insurgents seek new ways to defeat U.S. armored vehicles.

The Merkava now is being equipped with an underbelly charge plate, lightweight plows and mine rollers, specifically to deal with the urban threats, Livnat said. The IDF, additionally, is considering equipping the tank with so-called “non-lethal weapons” for crowd control and law enforcement type of operations.

Molotov cocktails, although crude weapons, potentially could destroy a tank just by causing an explosion. “If it gets inside the tank, you’ve lost it,” he added.

For low-intensity missions, the Merkava is being upgraded with polycarbonate sight shields, a rear-door firing peephole, and intake and exhaust shields to defend from Molotov cocktails.

The IDF also fitted tanks with marking poles, which assist the commander and driver maneuvering in narrow streets. To protect against individuals planting explosive charges into the air intakes, wire meshes were added to close the openings and to shield the optic sights. A redesigned commander’s cupola was installed to improve the commander’s visibility at higher elevation. A firing hatch and observation window was opened in the rear access door, where a sniper or sharpshooter can operate from a sheltered position.

The newest version of the Merkava eventually could get active protection systems, which defeat incoming rocket-propelled grenades or missiles by shooting them down with another rocket. That technology also is being considered for U.S. armored vehicles, but it’s a tough sell with commanders, because it poses a danger to friendly troops in the vicinity of the tank, who may be accidentally killed by their own vehicle’s defensive weapons. For active protection to work, Livnat said, “you have to get the friendly troops out of the way.”

The IDF, meanwhile, has built a prototype Merkava that, at 60 tons, is at least 15 tons lighter than the main battle tank, and would be employed exclusively as a personnel carrier.

The IDF M113s, meanwhile, are being retrofitted with reactive armor tiles, similar to the ones the U.S. Army has installed on the Bradley infantry fighting vehicle. The tiles are made in Israel by Rafael.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/article.cfm?Id=1488

It seem that heavily armed MBT is the way to go for MOUT operation.
It seem that Merkava is the best for all round armour and troop carrying capability.

Joe Black - July 2, 2004 12:25 PM (GMT)
my 2 cents view to add to this debate is that it will be better if armed UAVs will be flying overhead the buildings to spot rooftop snipers and ATGM operators. Nearby awaits a few groups of special forces ready to heli dropped onto the top of a building if ncessary, plus a few gunships available on-the-call with their 20-30mm cannons to blast the top floors of high raise buildings. Dispatched AI must be equipped with 3rd Gen body armour and weapons with integrated sights.

evo - July 4, 2004 01:01 PM (GMT)
with regards to snipers, there are now counter-sniping systems that use laser or acoustics to detect gunfire

the sensor is installed on the turret roof for maximum effect

UAV to spot snipers is a good idea, they can do plenty more [e.g. help troops see around corners]

just like to add that it may be more suitable to use a rotary UAV platform for this role

gary1910 - July 4, 2004 01:12 PM (GMT)
Welcome evo,
Regarding the acoustics counter-sniping system , I heard it was something that the Israeli has developed, and now the US is using it now ?

Any more info?

evo - July 4, 2004 01:36 PM (GMT)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3206493.stm

US system is by DARPA, laser based system, different to israel system

http://www.rafael.co.il/web/rafnew/products/land-sads.htm

seems there's a french version

http://www.army-technology.com/contractors...lance/metravib/

actually these systems remind me of the shtora / arena systems on russian tanks

http://www.defense-update.com/products/a/arena-e.htm

not suitable for doctrine of close troop support hanging around tanks though

gary1910 - July 4, 2004 01:51 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (evo @ Jul 4 2004, 09:36 PM)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3206493.stm

US system is by DARPA, laser based system, different to israel system

http://www.rafael.co.il/web/rafnew/products/land-sads.htm

seems there's a french version

http://www.army-technology.com/contractors...lance/metravib/

actually these systems remind me of the shtora / arena systems on russian tanks 

http://www.defense-update.com/products/a/arena-e.htm

not suitable for doctrine of close troop support hanging around tanks though

The French and Israeli acoustics version looking promising, the US laser one is damn expensive(US$7m! :o ) even though much more capable.

As for the active protection system, the technology is in way still developing.

You are right abt the friendlies killed by such system, in fact, ERA armour aslo poses the same danger to dismounted troops when the ERA block is hit by AT rounds. :(

gary1910 - July 5, 2004 08:17 AM (GMT)
Below is link to the report from US General Acccounting Office on the Military Operations : Recent Campaigns Benefited from Improved Communications & Technonlogy..

Basically a report on NCW implementation by US forces.

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d04547.pdf


warspite - July 5, 2004 02:04 PM (GMT)
Back to the topic...

I had just read in the May issue of Janes IDR on the replacement of old SM1s. Looks like United Defense has proposed their latest Thunderbolt system!

Let me see if I can get hold of the picture of the Thunderbolt turret mounted on the Primus chassis...


gary1910 - July 5, 2004 02:28 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (warspite @ Jul 5 2004, 10:04 PM)
Back to the topic...

I had just read in the May issue of Janes IDR on the replacement of old SM1s. Looks like United Defense has proposed their latest Thunderbolt system!

Let me see if I can get hold of the picture of the Thunderbolt turret mounted on the Primus chassis...

Can scan and post part of the article , interesting development. :)

Thunderbolt light tank, way to go man!!!! B)

evo - July 6, 2004 07:51 AM (GMT)
is it this one?

http://www.combatreform.com/thunderbolt02.jpg

quite a feat to be able to fire a 120mm gun on a 20 ton type vehicle

maybe low pressure gun?

hull looks similar to our bx [cv90 also]

pity that tradeoff had to be made to reduce armour to lighten weight

current technology still can't go past 3 opposing factors of firepower, protection & mobility

bcoy - July 6, 2004 08:30 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (evo @ Jul 6 2004, 03:51 PM)
is it this one?

http://www.combatreform.com/thunderbolt02.jpg

quite a feat to be able to fire a 120mm gun on a 20 ton type vehicle

maybe low pressure gun?

hull looks similar to our bx [cv90 also]

pity that tradeoff had to be made to reduce armour to lighten weight

current technology still can't go past 3 opposing factors of firepower, protection & mobility

I think it shares similar automotive componets as the Bionix.

Joe Black - July 6, 2004 10:10 AM (GMT)
People, b4 you get too excited... the word is "proposed". UD proposed Thunderbolt as the SM1 replacement. I believe ST has already had something in the pipeline a few years ago. How successful that is, is anyone's guess (those who are not in the loop).

If Jane's report is correct, it indicates a few fact:
1. ST has yet to developed a new light tank (at least successfully).
2. SAF is still looking at a light tank for the SM1 replacement, not just some missile based platform.
3. The "light tank" being spotted are nothing more than the Primus :)
4. It is more than likely that a 120mm gun platform is being sought after by SAF.

warspite - July 6, 2004 02:46 PM (GMT)
I have the scanned article but how do you attach the image w/o the http: link part?

Need help here.... :P


warspite - July 6, 2004 04:02 PM (GMT)
Just been to the Mindef website, and viewed the video clip on the Primus SSPH.

Thought I saw a snap shot of the Swedish Arthur artillery locating system mounted on a BV206. Anybody can verify that is in service as rumoured, or did Mindef just put it in just to make the video more appealing???

gary1910 - July 6, 2004 04:36 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (warspite @ Jul 7 2004, 12:02 AM)
Just been to the Mindef website, and viewed the video clip on the Primus SSPH.

Thought I saw a snap shot of the Swedish Arthur artillery locating system mounted on a BV206. Anybody can verify that is in service as rumoured, or did Mindef just put it in just to make the video more appealing???

I remember reading from one website abt the purchase, we suppose to hv 3 of them.

I think we also discuss abt it in the old forum quite sometime ago.

Just found the link:

http://projects.sipri.se/armstrade/SWE_EXPTS_93-02.pdf

gary1910 - July 6, 2004 06:20 PM (GMT)
Just saw the new video of Primus,
warspite, you are right, it is the Arthur weapon locating system.
user posted image

and here the link from Ericsson:

http://www.ericsson.com/microwave/press/case/990413-a.shtml

According to Janes, we bought abt 54 chassis for Primus SPH Bn, which mean 3 Bn and with 3 Arthur supporting , kind of sound right. B)

Justin179 - July 7, 2004 09:40 AM (GMT)
saw some pics of thunderbolt at asia-pac forums..shesssh..damn ugly liao..we shld make the turret look better..

Theory - July 8, 2004 02:44 AM (GMT)
(To the administrators:)

Ok, so someone's got this scanned .jpg file of a one-page article in the Internation Defense Digest titled "Singapore studies indigenous 120mm main battle tank". Is it kosher to put in online (so that people from the forum can see it)?

gary1910 - July 8, 2004 06:12 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Theory @ Jul 8 2004, 10:44 AM)
(To the administrators:)

Ok, so someone's got this scanned .jpg file of a one-page article in the Internation Defense Digest titled "Singapore studies indigenous 120mm main battle tank". Is it kosher to put in online (so that people from the forum can see it)?

Can try to be a member of a free image hosting website, below is one of them which give a limit of 5 MB for free and able to be link, but size must be below 100kb.

To sign on:
http://www.villagephotos.com/login.asp

Link to my public album:
My Webpage

and the uploaded image:
user posted image

Other free hosting links:

http://www.free-webhosts.com/free-image-hosting.php

where http://www.imageshack.us/ is the best for msg board,no registration , large file size(850Kb) , no time limit but will be deleted after 100 days of no download and lastly no personal album.

Last option, you could simply email the image file to me , I will upload for you.

Theory - July 8, 2004 08:20 AM (GMT)
Thanks! But my question was: is it kosher, i.e., is it ok, legit, etc.? Does it violate any copyright laws? If not, I'll definitely have it uploaded.

gary1910 - July 8, 2004 08:50 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Theory @ Jul 8 2004, 04:20 PM)
Thanks! But my question was: is it kosher, i.e., is it ok, legit, etc.? Does it violate any copyright laws? If not, I'll definitely have it uploaded.

Not sure, but I have ever seen others in another forum scanned and uploaded a few pages.
It will be too troublesome for them to do anything , in fact it will be a free advertising for them if only a page or 2.

WAFF

Justin179 - July 8, 2004 09:05 AM (GMT)
WAFF has unique faciltiy i see by ter designers..it`s called temp file folder..if u upload it, it will stay there for a week or so just right enuff time for evry1 to see the pic. anyway, some people upload stuffs into villagephotos i see in other forums from janes and they are still there. some pics in waff are frm janes..confirmed and have been styaing ter for months becoz the posters save into online public albums.

but sure you can upload it. people hav been uploading thousand of pictures. u can always de-load it later if u want after people see it. cheers

|-|05| - July 8, 2004 10:00 AM (GMT)
well it shld be ok as long as u cite the source and do not sell it or charge others for it.....

Theory - July 9, 2004 04:36 AM (GMT)
The file was scanned by Warspite (thanks!) from the International Defense Digest (first published online 5 April 2004)

user posted image

Theory - July 9, 2004 04:41 AM (GMT)
Re: IDD article above

In a sense, most of the information is not all that surprising (though I was intrigued by the mentioned of an Oto Melera 120mm--could it be similar to the one on the Ariete?). But it does confirm close ST-UD ties (and competition as well).

bcoy - July 9, 2004 04:50 AM (GMT)
So there will be six prototypes in total?

120mm and 105mm gun turrets on Bionix, UCVP and M8 variant chassis?

gary1910 - July 9, 2004 05:31 AM (GMT)
Thanks Warspite and Theory for the articles.

So far all of them are conceptual designs and none of them has been truly tested and evaluated except the original M8 Thunderbolt.

But with UDLP exeperiences, I think they could easily overcome them.

Can't wait to junk the SM1!! :P


Justin179 - July 9, 2004 06:27 AM (GMT)
the one on the primus chassiss looking kindda odd..like poor man`s tank..lol..tink it look even better on bioniz..come on st..lets get some looks factored in..me want it preettty..ok!!!

gary1910 - July 9, 2004 09:25 AM (GMT)
Based on the IDD report, ST was most probably working on the HITFACT 120mm Turret and Gun System from the Oto Melara - Fiat Iveco Consortium.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
HITFACT 105/120 mm - LOW RECOIL FORCE TUR for MEDIUM and LIGHT VEHICLES Three-man, power operated turret armed with a 120 mm, 45 caliber or 105 mm, 52 caliber low-recoil-force gun, intended for installation on light and medium weight tanks and wheeled or tracked tank destroyers.

Due to its light weight and low recoil force, the turret can provide the fire power of a main battle tank with great accuracy, without impairing the tactical and strategic characteristics of mobility of the vehicles.

The auto-frettaged gun is fitted with thermal jacket and bore evacuator. A hydraulic, recoil-counter-recoil system and a multi-baffle muzzle brake of high efficiency minimize the recoil force and prevent any excessive stress on the vehicle structure.

The turret fire power impairs or destroys hostile tanks at significant ranges. The gun is controlled by a FCS including a gunner's self-stabilized day and night IR thermal camera periscope with integral laser rangefinder. The commander can control the turret and gun movements and can search the battlefield with the remotely controlled ToT with IR TV camera and 7.62 machine gun. The ToT can be also controlled by the gunner (option).

The HITFACT® FCS includes the digital data processing computer HITFIST® with associated control panels; the turret servos are all electric (two-axis stabilization) with brushless motors.

Target search, detection and identification are performed by the commander, independently from the turret traversing movements.

The auxiliary armament consists of a coaxial, 7.62 machine gun, a 7.62 machine gun mounted on the ToT and an AA pintle mounted 12.7 mm (optional).

Four electrically operated multiband smoke screen ammunition dischargers, on either side of the turret, complete the auxiliary armament.

Turret armor protection can be enhanced with optional add-on panels with multi-hit capability.

Hitfact
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Obviously, ST is looking for an entire turreted 120mm gun system to mate with our Bionix chassis, HITFACT ( out in 2002) seem to be good choice, afterall there was not many low recoil 120mm system at that time.

Let at look all of them.

1)RUAG's high pressure smoothbore CTG 120/L50 gun is one the famous one which could incorporated into lightweight AFV from 25-30tons.
So far the only example is the CV90120-T( almost 30 tons).

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/cv90/index.html

2) HITFACT (On the Centuro)

3)Thunderbolt 120mm AGS( UDLP M8 Thunderbolt, out in late 2003 )

4)Rheinmetal LLR L/47 120mm( out in 2003)
http://www.rheinmetall-detec.de/index.php?lang=3&fid=806


gary1910 - July 9, 2004 10:14 AM (GMT)
Let's look at all the options for our new light tank:

1) HITFACT turreted 120mm gun system with our Bionix chassis.( 4 men crew)

2) 120mm Thunderbolt turret with our Bionix chassis.(3 men crew for all Thunderbolt variant becos of the autoloader)

3) 120mm Thunderbolt turret with UCVP(Primus) chassis.

4) 120mm Thunderbolt turret with the original M8 chassis.

I think we should limit ourselves to 120mm variant at the moment, you guys can add more options to the discussion.

1)To me , the HITFACT option albeit using our Bionix chassis is not the best option at the moment, becos of the 4 men crew. I also not sure that our Bionix chassis can withstand heavier loading and recoil w/o major system modification.
Using the Bionix chassis will give us the highest component commonality with other AFVs in SAF and also give us the experiences in building our own light tank but it might take too long.

2) Advantage of this of course reduce manning, but I have still have doubts with the Bionix chassis just like option 1.

3) This to me is the best option, becos the Primus chassis has been proven to be able to withstand heavy loading and recoil. It should give a good deal of component commonality with our SPH.
But of course this will be buying practically off the shelves, it could be expensive.

4) This option will give us a system that is developed by UDLP, it might be the fastest option, but might be low in component commonality & maybe the most expensive option?

Joe Black - July 9, 2004 11:04 AM (GMT)
QUOTE
4) This option will give us a system that is developed by UDLP, it might be the fastest option, but might be low in component commonality & maybe the most expensive option?


Not necessary. M8 chassis uses a lot of similar automotive components (engine, suspension - derived from M2 Bradley, etc). The Turret is going to be new anyway regardless if it is going to be on Bionix or the M8 chassis. In fact, if the M8 thunderbolt has been totally tested for reliability, I think this might be the best options (if ST can license build them). The second best option is to go for Thunderbolt turret on Bionix instead of the UCVP. The reason being, logistically it will be easier to manage as Bionix and the new Bionix light tank will use similar parts or even swap parts in the field if necessary. It will be a logistic dream for SAF.

gary1910 - July 9, 2004 11:25 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Joe Black @ Jul 9 2004, 07:04 PM)
QUOTE
4) This option will give us a system that is developed by UDLP, it might be the fastest option, but might be low in component commonality & maybe the most expensive option?


Not necessary. M8 chassis uses a lot of similar automotive components (engine, suspension - derived from M2 Bradley, etc). The Turret is going to be new anyway regardless if it is going to be on Bionix or the M8 chassis. In fact, if the M8 thunderbolt has been totally tested for reliability, I think this might be the best options (if ST can license build them). The second best option is to go for Thunderbolt turret on Bionix instead of the UCVP. The reason being, logistically it will be easier to manage as Bionix and the new Bionix light tank will use similar parts or even swap parts in the field if necessary. It will be a logistic dream for SAF.

If it is the hybrid electric engine, then it will be different story.

But I heard our Bionix is a bit underpower, I was told that the Bionix was having power problem when they installed a XXX on it I think abt two years back, not revealing too much, just that I think the vanilla Bionix chassis might need some more work on it.

That's mean more delay for our new light tank. :(




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